[FrancesHinden]

Scoring: IMPs

---

The auction was different at the two tables (one of them started with a strong 1D opener) but the fundamental question is the same. You bid uncontested:

2C  2D
2NT  3C
3D  3H
3NT  5C
?

2C = strong
2D = negative or waiting (you don't play any form of double negative)
2NT = 23-24
3C = 5-card stayman
3D = no 5-card major
3H = natural, 4 cards
3NT = no 4-card major, but exactly 3 spades
5C = to play

Partner could have passed 2NT, but instead has shown 4 hearts, 6 or 7 clubs and has promised no more than a 0-count. Partner could have bid 4C natural slam try over 3NT (or with a better hand transferred to clubs and bid hearts).

So, you aren't invited to bid on.
Do you bid on anyway?

[Edit: Hand amended to be consistent with the auction]

[kenrexford]

Does 2♦ deny a king? If so, 6♣ is worse than 50%.

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 20 2007, 07:25 PM, said:

3NT = no 4-card major, but exactly 3 spades

I must have miscounted my spades; I see four of them. Anyway, yes I respect my partner's decision. If you haven't been invited to the party, you are not supposed to go.

Roland

[paulg]

It seems likely that the slam is only better than 50% when partner has the ♥A. All other hands, including the one with the ♥Q and ♣K, may have bid gone through 4♣ with 4-6+ distribution.

So I pass.

Paul

PS I assume that we've transformed a random card into a spade given the explanations (or did we bid 3♠). If I really have three hearts then even more reason to pass.

[hrothgar]

Pity this is IMPS. 6♣ would be an easy bid at MP. Now I need to think.

Lets look at this from partner's perspective:

We know that partner has 4 Hearts. Furthermore, partner placed the contract in 5♣ opposite what could be a doubleton Club (I would bid the same way holding a 3=3=5=2 hand). At a bare minimum, partner should be sitting on a 6-4. He might have a 7-4 or some such. If I had to guess, I'd place him with a 1=4=2=6 hand)

Now lets look at my hand. I have a ridiculously control rich 23 count. (Quite honestly, this looks much more like a 25 count than a 23 count).

I ran a very quick sim... If my assumption about the 6-4 holds true, slam is an overwhelming favorite. Even if responder is completely bust, there are still a bunch of possibilities for cross ruffs and dummy reversals. Plus, most of the time responder has some useful stuff (the JT of clubs, the Queen of Hearts, what have you)

I'm bidding 6 and will apologize profusely if I am wrong.

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on Feb 20 2007, 05:36 PM, said:

Does 2♦ deny a king? If so, 6♣ is worse than 50%.

2D is any hand not worth a positive. It doesn't deny an ace.
(You might argue whether partner's subsequent bidding denies an ace or not; that's part of the point of this question)

[kenrexford]

OK, if partner could have the club King, then I bid 6♣.

If partner has something like x-xxxx-xx-Kxxxxx, we take six clubs, four top pointed cards, for ten tricks, and at least one heart ruff, for 11 tricks. If partner also sneaks in the heart Queen, slam is nearly 100% (fails if hearts are 6-1?). Worst case, this may be on a 50-50 heart position. There just seem to be too many good positions.

[Double !]

Is it 100% that the 5C bid shows clubs? Not in one partnership that I had a number of years ago (not that long ago-15 years maybe). It had a conventional meaning, but I can't say the name of the convention because Roland might read this. I know that the initial posting stipulated that 5C showed clubs, but I wonder about whether or not there is a better way. But, if partner did not ask my opinion but instead placed the contract, then partner knows more about my hand than I know about partner's. PASS

I experience a lot of disagreement regarding what various rebids above 3NT mean on similar sequences that essentially begin with 2NT-3C. Perhaps there have been many innovations since the time I essentially stopped playing live bridge: if so, I would appreciate knowing what some of these are (not necessarily saying that I'll agree with them).

DHL

[temp3600]

I pass, because partner could've bid 4♣ and jumped to 5.

[pclayton]

I love this hand, but if you really respect pard's judgement, you have to pass. As others have said ♥Q/♣K and a 6-4 is a move toward slam via 4♣.

I would expect pard would have one of these cards but not both, but its possible he has neither, and 5♣ could require a little luck.

Give me ♠Axx, ♥Kx, ♦AKxx, ♣AKxx; and I will bid 6. Even opposite a yarb, we are on a hook at worst.

[Walddk]

The thing is that if you bid 6♣ with this hand you tell your partner that s/he can't judge what the right contract is. Your hand isn't that good actually. You have one king too many in diamonds/spades. A + AK and you cover partner's minor suit losers; the other king isn't working.

Give me

AKx
KQ
Axxx
AKxx

and I know that 6♣ makes with trumps 2-1 opposite only six clubs. On this auction partner is often 4-7 in hearts and clubs, possibly 4-6. 5♣ shows a bust; if s/he was just a tiny bit interested in slam, s/he should have bid 4♣ followed by 5♣.

Partner does not have an ace and s/he does not have six clubs to the king. And if s/he has ♥Q and ♣K s/he should have (excuse me) her/his head examined.

I would be very annoyed if my partner raised to 6♣ with the hand Frances shows us. Frankly speaking, I don't care if it makes or not. What I do care about, however, is that my partner doesn't trust my judgement.

Roland

[Fluffy]

You have a ton of top tricks opposite an unalancedhand, and that is pretty different from having a bunch of Qs and Js.

Still I think we miss some extra strenght to bid 6. Yarborough 3415 would bid the same probably.

[P_Marlowe]

Fluffy, on Feb 20 2007, 05:07 PM, said:

You have a ton of top tricks opposite an unalancedhand, and that is pretty different from having a bunch of Qs and Js.

Still I think we miss some extra strenght to bid 6. Yarborough 3415 would bid the same probably.

He could have passed 3NT, holding
just 5 clubs, does not gurantee a club
fit, opener could be 3-3-5-2.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I always respect partners decision.

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Feb 21 2007, 12:33 AM, said:

I would be very annoyed if my partner raised to 6♣ with the hand Frances shows us. Frankly speaking, I don't care if it makes or not. What I do care about, however, is that my partner doesn't trust my judgement.

Here's the thing:

You already misrepresented your hand to partner when you chose to describe this rock-crusher as a 23-24 count. You have a complete monster with three first round controls, three second round controls, and two third round controls. Opposite the expected 6-4 you have an incredible hand. Partner may have great judgement, but he's working with faulty information. I have not reason to beleive that he's going to be able to gmake the right decision.

I really recommend running a quick sim and see just how many hands are capable of making 6♣ opposite this opener.
Its too frequent for me to want to pass.

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Feb 21 2007, 12:34 AM, said:

You already misrepresented your hand to partner when you chose to describe this rock-crusher as a 23-24 count.

I disagree. Which 23 count would you rather have on this auction

AKx
Kx
AKxx
AQxx

= the actual hand, or ...

AKx
KQ
Axxx
AKxx

= the hand I posted on page 1. If you can't tell the difference, I think your judgement is poor.

Roland

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Feb 21 2007, 01:41 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Feb 21 2007, 12:34 AM, said:

You already misrepresented your hand to partner when you chose to describe this rock-crusher as a 23-24 count.

I disagree. Which 23 count would you rather have on this auction

AKx
Kx
AKxx
AQxx

= the actual hand, or ...

AKx
KQ
Axxx
AKxx

= the hand I posted on page 1. If you can't tell the difference, I think your judgement is poor.

Roland

I readily admit that the hand that you posted is better for slam opposite a 1=4=2=6 pattern. Furthermore, its better for slam despite the fact that its significantly weaker. I would have now qualms describing your example hand as a 23-24 HCP 1NT oriented hand. I believe that the original hand is too strong.

However, the issue is not whether or not I have a "perfect" hand to bid 6♣. Rather, we need to ask whether this hand will produce 12 tricks in a club contract often enough to justify advancing to slam.

Me, I rather have a partner who worries more about making the right bid and less about nursing my fragile little ego. Apparantly you feel differently.

[gwnn]

One should be nicer to one's own pd more than to one's hand. Pass.

[Fluffy]

P_Marlowe, on Feb 20 2007, 10:30 PM, said:

holding just 5 clubs, does not gurantee a club
fit, opener could be 3-3-5-2.

Holding 5 clubs with a yarborough just guarantees you make more tricks in clubs than in NT , probably with only 4 as well.