[bglover]

You pick this up:
QX
xxx
AKJ
AKQxx


You open 1C, partner bids 1S (what else?), your turn... what is your plan?

[jjsb]

yes , yucky hand seems a good illustration of that hand . 2D for me . , my plan is to try not to play a 5D or 6D on a 4-3 fit  . well i just don't see any other possible bid for now ...

regards
syl

[inquiry]

Quote

You pick this up:
QX
xxx
AKJ
AKQxx


You open 1C, partner bids 1S (what else?), your turn... what is your plan?

Yucky hand? 18 hcp, excelllent five card suit, 6 quick trick and 6 controls?  Man-o-man, you must be a good card holder if you consider this one yucky....  

Yes I think I know where you are going, you don't want to rebid 2NT because you lack a Heart stopper. Don't let that bother you. I bid 2NT as the most descriptive bid. I am balanced, 18-19 without four card support for partner.

You may make 9 tricks in notrump opposite as little as   S-Axxx H-xxx D-xxx C-xxx  in the form of 1S, 5C, and 3D (hook on) if hearts split 3-3. Of course, you will play in only 2NT.  Sure partner may have something like: S:KJTx H-x D-QTxx C-JT98, but he doesn't have to bid 3NT. 3D bid here will get you safely out of notrump. Or if he has S:AKxxx H-x D-xxxx C-xxx he will rebid a forcing 3S bid. Now you have to decide rather to risk 3NT, raise SPADES, or try for a game in club/spades.  

If you can't live with 2NT and want to be cute (and willing to deal with an angry partner), you might psych a 2H reverse. If partner raises to 3H, hope like hell he will let you play 3NT. If he bids 2S, rebid 2Nt, if he bids 3C or 3D, bid 3NT. I wouidn't do this, but if you are just too opposed to bidding the obvious 2NT, sometimes cute is better. The best alternative to 2NT, and one that is far less likely to freak your partner out,  is a reverse in Diamonds. At least you have those... Now if partner bids 2H, time to bail. I would bid 2S. If partner trys 2NT bid 3NT.

[bglover]

Well obviously its a fine hand with a rebid problem... No, I do not like a 2n rebid on 234 of a suit likely to be lead.. that's why i posted this. It is an alternative here but it's flawed.

I did choose a 2D rebid like syl to see what would develop... unfortunately partner passed (bozo who designated self "expert"), so there is the true end of the story from my perspective... just curious how others bid it is all.

[Codo]

Hi 2/1,

this is a fine hand with virtually no rebid problem, not even a small one.

You rebid 2 Diamond?
Why?
If you reach NT, nearly anybody will now find the Heart lead even more easily, even with something like
Qxxx,Kxx,QTxxx,x
And if you are afraid of a pd passing with 5143: He really is allowed to bid again. And if he decided to pass: Fine too, pay your price once a thousand hands.

But if pd has something in Hearts, you only wrongsided the contract if he has one stopper like Kxx and you had 8 running tricks in the other suits.

If your pd has xx in hearts, the suit may break.
There a millions of hands, where 2 NT works much better then to lie with 2 H or 2 D.

So, you loose once in while with 30 HCPS and no stopper in Heart because the suit divides 5-3? So what does this proove?

No system, not even the best mosquito or whatever can work in all situations.  

And if you say: Any NT rebid must hold cards in the unbid suits, you must too often (like in this hand)
find other lies. You lied about your diamond length and the balanced nature of your hand. And for no purpose at all...

Kind Regards

ROland

[bglover]

My only response to this is... Partner has a stiff club... Now, I have 6 trix not 8...

My partner left and we redealt the hand due to the bozo bidding but partner did have 4d to the Q and the king of hts, along with the q of spds 4 times, so 3N looked like it "could" make... I really don't know if it did... But AKQxx is NOT five trix.. its 3 (ya i know how to do LTC) if partner doesn't have 3 of them. So, as a practical (as opposed to theoritical) matter, this hand needs to not "blast" in no trump because it just plain doesn't have enough tricks for 2N in my opinion. 3N is the likely landing spot, from partner's side if probably best.. cuz I lack the stoppers and want the lead up to partner's hand if it's correct to be there (appeared it was, and 3N my side may not make).

[inquiry]

Quote

My only response to this is... Partner has a stiff club... Now, I have 6 trix not 8...

My partner left and we redealt the hand due to the bozo bidding but partner did have 4d to the Q and the king of hts, along with the q of spds 4 times, so 3N looked like it "could" make... I really don't know if it did... But AKQxx is NOT five trix.. its 3 (ya i know how to do LTC) if partner doesn't have 3 of them. So, as a practical (as opposed to theoritical) matter, this hand needs to not "blast" in no trump because it just plain doesn't have enough tricks for 2N in my opinion. 3N is the likely landing spot, from partner's side if probably best.. cuz I lack the stoppers and want the lead up to partner's hand if it's correct to be there (appeared it was, and 3N my side may not make).

Quite frankly I find this impossible to believe. The hand you described for your partner is:

Qxxx
Kxxx
Qxxx
x

First it is unbelievable that he would bid 1S instead of 1H with that hand. Second, you BOTH have the spade queen... now that is really bridge in the fourth dimension.

And I agree totally with Codo's comments earlier in this thread about why 2NT is right, and the rightness of 2NT has nothing  to do with whatever hand your partner did or didn't hold.

[bglover]

Mea culpa.. i reversed hts and spds in hand... partner was indeed 4-4-4-1 and bid hts 1st.

I had xxx of spds and Qx of hearts...bidding did go as shown.

Point is that 3N more likely makes if partner is declarer.. and that a 2N bid by me wrong sides the contract if the contract is to have any chance at all, and I think opener needs to spot that at the very beginning and realize that a jump to 2N is probably the wrong choice given his major holdings....

[Codo]

Hi 2/1,

again I hear something, like wrongsiding the contract. The hand is:

xxx                      opposite xxxx  
QX                                     xxxx
AKJ                                     xxxx
AKQxx                                x
I don`t know the spots in your pds hand. But if I look at the hand suit for suit:

Spades: you have a 7 card fit, so no real need to put one hand or another on the table.
Hearts: I always believe, that it is always good to have Qx in the closed hand, makes it much more difficult for opps to attack the suit.
Diamonds: Your hook is in the close hand: Nice
Clubs: Your strength here is too in the closed hand. Wonderful.
So, if you play NT, you "rightsided" the contrract by bidding two NT. Looks like a great success to me.

Kind Regards

Roland

[bglover]

Well, as I said, I got a peek at partner's hand before we redealt and it SEEMED that if opps led a spade thru dummy (the logical opening lead here) that the hand was likely to fail.

However, if the strong hand was dummy, it also SEEMED that 3n had a chance on a spade lead (since the hand wasn't played I can't be sure). Now, when I picked up that hand, I realized it was a very nice hand but that it had some problems, and that it was not great for no trump unless partner could cover the majors for me. I did, indeed, reverse in diamonds rather than bid 2NT to cater to this possibility.. praying that partner did not raise diamonds after the reverse but could bid 2n as was the case here.

I do not disagree that the hand has the correct shape and strength for a 2N rebid over 1H. That's why i posted this hand..to see how others would approach it. I do not know a way to track the hand down and see how 3N did from my side... if someone can tell me (Ben? Uday?), I would love to see the results. 3N was an almost sure thing partner's way just looking at the layout and appeared in danger my way.

[inquiry]

Quote

I do not know a way to track the hand down and see how 3N did from my side... if someone can tell me (Ben? Uday?),  

Your wish is my command... The traveller results were
Romilo ebnla pyrry baystate 4HS= 620 10.13
creative Gipper pelú orso_bruno 3NN= 600 9.93
deg laof Occio1 nlb 3NN= 600 9.93
algreta anisa winstonr kwunn2 2CN+4 170 2.20  
pippo123 NigelS roe charnah 2DN+3 150 1.53
Psykopat esteo CaptSplash dozer 2NN+1 150 1.53  
bantem35 michelira pauluzzu gioma 4CN+1 150 1.53  
Ozjock1 asvitiello bayhen1 claude120 2CN+1 110  0.53
jay brondum siuya COCOS 3CN= 110 0.53
aster huget10 Wiste olekaa 4HS-1 -100 -4.13
bakly tobro chiachit ferny 3NN-1 -100 -4.13
doran joyjoy nicke griffondog 3NN-1 -100 -4.13
mitsouko brthrblu taxman_47 davea2 4HS-1 -100 -4.13
absorb Sir Maikel elettra forli56 3NN-2 -200 -6.47  
poli hichem63 haver anamaria 5DS-2 -200 -6.47
remin BUFFY el_greco Munksgaard 6CN-3 -300 -8.40  

East held S-AQ92 H-65 D-9874 C-JT7, and they can always beat 3NT on any opening lead.

ben

[bglover]

LOL I knew you were up to the challenge!

Just how DID you track this sucker?

[inquiry]

Quote

LOL I knew you were up to the challenge!

Just how DID you track this sucker?

Something you should try sometime....Simple Bridge Logic...  

But seriously, I will explain it to you via instant message.

[Jstroke]

I mentioned to Ben that I think I have seen a hand similar to this at another site.  It was a quiz, using a world class tourney deal.  Forgive me if my memory fails but I think 10 points were given for the 2D reply, and 9 for the 2H reply even though the World Class player running the quiz, prefered 2H.

Ben replied that he has tried 2H with mixed results.
So to clarify my understanding I ask.

When 2H goes bad, what happens?

What I think I foresee is:
1C 1S 2H 2N* 3C ... 3S *leb pass, natural pass/4S?
Looks okay.

1C 1S  2H 3/4H .... you 3N/?  
If a rational partner persists over 3N to 4H, should there be at least a good chance for a double 8 card fit, with sufficient HCP, albeit wasted minor suit slam values?

This looks similar to a Game Try situation that used to come up in the dark ages.  Related to the need to bid another suit in invitational auctions when using Forcing Major jumps.   I remember some people would mix up their weak and strong suit game try auctions.  The theory being that the opponents needed the information more than partner.  

[inquiry]

Quote

I mentioned to Ben that I think I have seen a hand similar to this at another site.  It was a quiz, using a world class tourney deal.  Forgive me if my memory fails but I think 10 points were given for the 2D reply, and 9 for the 2H reply even though the World Class player running the quiz, prefered 2H.

Ben replied that he has tried 2H with mixed results.
So to clarify my understanding I ask.

When 2H goes bad, what happens?

What I think I foresee is:
1C 1S 1H 2N* 3C ... 3S *leb pass, natural pass/4S?
Looks okay.

1C 1S  1H 2/3H .... you 3N  
If a rational partner persists over 3N to 4H, should there be at least a good chance for a double 8 card fit, with sufficient HCP, albeit wasted minor suit slam values?

This looks similar to a Game Try situation that used to come up in the dark ages.  Related to the need to bid another suit in invitational auctions when using Forcing Major jumps.   I remember some people would mix up their weak and strong suit game try auctions.  The theory being that the opponents needed the information more than partner.  

The pscyhic reverse generallly works pretty well if your partner doesn't hang you. West is very unlikelly to lead a heart unless his suit is just so good he can't stand it, and against most players, if they have that hand, they can't stand their good luck and they double 2H's alerting you to the problem before you complete your pschyic intent to sneak into 3NT.

But, your partner will play you for 5-6 distribution, and is very likley to 1) Splinter in 4Ds, and makes it impossible for you to get back out of hearts and back into clubs (and forget getting into notrump). 2) leap to 4Hs (PFA) with a weak hand but 3 or 4 card fit if he plays the reverse as game force, and 3) he will bid 3H and when you try to get to 3NT, if he is looking at two or three small diamonds (and you ahve the AKJ), he might reasoably figure he has ruffing value in diamonds, and pull you right back to 4Hs (think 5-4-2-2 hand).  

Of course if partner bids 2NT (lebehnshol) or 2S/3S/3C/3D you can rebid 3NT and probably be allowed to play there, unless partner counts you for closer to 20 and good unbalanced hand, where he will force you to 5/6 clubs (but then, it might actually be right  contract).

[the hog]

Virtually every time I have reversed in situations like this it has been fraught with disaster, especially if the reverse is in a M. Consider a raise to 4H by partner!!

I have come to the conclusion it is far more important to show hand type and strength rather than have a bee in my bonnet regarding wrong siding the contract. After all, if this hand were minimally stronger - say Kx of S instead of Qx, would you not open 2NT? Does this not wrong side the contract if partner has H cards? What happens if you can run 9 tricks provided the opps don't lead through the S K? (After all pd may respond 1S on xxxx with cards outside!)

These days I find it far more sensible to simply rebid 2NT on this hand type. It shows my shape, it shows my strength, and it does not cause any problems brought about by the cutesy showing of fake suits.