[xx1943]

Scoring: IMP

What do you lead without double?
WEST   NORTH  EAST   SOUTH
 1♠     2♣    pass    2♠
 3♥     3NT   pass    pass
pass   


What do you lead with double?
WEST   NORTH  EAST   SOUTH
 1♠     2♣    pass    2♠
 3♥     3NT   pass    pass
double  pass  pass    pass

---

Which suit do you, lead if partner bids 2 of them?
What do you lead, if doubles the final 3NT?

See the complete story in comedy of errors.

[hotShot]

Opps have discusssed the ♠ stopper problem, if you want me to play spade, i need to hear a "they don't stop ♠" dbl. so I'll try ♥, because dummy should have the stopper in front of my partner.

[Free]

If partner wants a ♠ lead, he shouldn't bid 3♥. ♥ with or without the double imo.

[Double !]

Free, on Feb 17 2007, 05:00 AM, said:

If partner wants a ♠ lead, he shouldn't bid 3♥. ♥ with or without the double imo.

Makes sense to me.

DHL

[temp3600]

Free, on Feb 17 2007, 05:00 AM, said:

If partner wants a ♠ lead, he shouldn't bid 3♥.  ♥ with or without the double imo.

What if partner is not yet thinking about defending the hand? Maybe we have a good save in hearts against their cold 3NT or 5♣.

[cherdano]

3♥ was a bid to show hearts, not to direct a lead vs 3N. I guess it would make sense to define double as lead directing, but I haven't discussed this with anyone, and I don't know about a standard.
Logic doesn't help either, as without the double, I would have led my better major, and partner can hardly know which one that is, so he can't double to ask for an unusual lead to help me pick the major.

Arend

[han]

I agree with Arend.

[xx1943]

cherdano, on Feb 18 2007, 04:55 AM, said:

3♥ was a bid to show hearts, not to direct a lead vs 3N. I guess it would make sense to define double as lead directing, but I haven't discussed this with anyone, and I don't know about a standard.
Logic doesn't help either, as without the double, I would have led my better major, and partner can hardly know which one that is, so he can't double to ask for an unusual lead to help me pick the major.

Arend

100% agree.

In the post-mortem, when we discussed our loss on this hand, we had 4 different meanings.

What about these rules?

1) If partner overcalls a suit, lead it.
2) If partner opens a suit, lead it, if you have no other idea, what to lead
3) If we both bid different suits, without double lead partners suit.
4) If we both bid different suits, with double lead your suit.

5) If partner bids 2 suits, one must decide, whether the second suit is a suggestion to play or a lead director and so what to lead
   a ) without double lead the first. (if the 2. suit was to play)
   b ) with double lead the second. (if the 2. suit was to play)
   c ) with or without double lead the second. (if the 2. suit was a lead director)
But I don't like such ambiguity so what about this agreement:
5) .....without X the first and with X the second?

Al

[hotShot]

cherdano, on Feb 18 2007, 04:55 AM, said:

3♥ was a bid to show hearts, not to direct a lead vs 3N.

I agree to that.

Quote

I guess it would make sense to define double as lead directing, but I haven't discussed this with anyone, and I don't know about a standard.
Logic doesn't help either,

I don't agree about the logic here. Obviously in this bidding north was asked about solid ♠ stopper and promised to have them. So it does not make much sense to play ♠ trough partners possible KJxxx when north can hold AQT. So it does not make much sense to lead ♠, when there is an alternative. Now partner has shown a 2nd suit and stopper in that suit are likely to be placed in font of partners honors.
So it is logical, if we lead one of partners suits to lead ♥.

Quote

as without the double, I would have led my better major, and partner can hardly know which one that is, so he can't double to ask for an unusual lead to help me pick the major.

Arend

Since it is illogical to lead partners suit after this bidding, if dbl has a lead directing meaning, it should ask to lead partners suit although north promised a stopper. Partner may know that north has only one stopper and that he has side entries, to use his ♠ later.

[FrancesHinden]

We've discussed these auctions (doubling 3NT) at some length, although funnily enough we hadn't included this one. When I gave this auction to my partner, we both agreed that we would lead our better major, and that the double merely said the contract was definitely going off; was not lead directional at all.

So on the sample hand I would lead a heart on both auctions.

We used to have very specific rules about what suit a double of 3NT demanded, but we've found that they didn't work, so (with a few exceptions) double now just means "this is going off if you don't try and be clever"

[cherdano]

Hotshot, for me this auction is natural, except that 2♠ was forcing with a fit. It is not specifically a stopper ask for spades.
In particular, the natural 3N bid should imply stopper for both suits, unless North is doing some sort of a gamble. But if he does, we don't know about which suit.

(Sometimes, an opponent may guess to bid 3N with a stopper for only the first-bid suit on that basis that the 2nd suit may be a 4 card-length only. But that doesn't apply here, as 3♥ certainly shows 5+ cards.)

Arend

[hotShot]

cherdano, on Feb 20 2007, 08:26 AM, said:

Hotshot, for me this auction is natural, except that 2♠ was forcing with a fit. It is not specifically a stopper ask for spades.
In particular, the natural 3N bid should imply stopper for both suits, unless North is doing some sort of a gamble. But if he does, we don't know about which suit.

(Sometimes, an opponent may guess to bid 3N with a stopper for only the first-bid suit on that basis that the 2nd suit may be a 4 card-length only. But that doesn't apply here, as 3♥ certainly shows 5+ cards.)

Arend

Do you think
1) that 2♠ promises stopper in ♠ or
2) do you expect 2♠ to be 2- cards in spade, fit in clubs and strength.
If it is not 1) than any north bidding 3NT without stopping spades is ... let's say courageous. North should have stopper in ♠, one for the lead and one for each time he needs to exit in another suit.
Partner had a risk free dbl on 2♠, and he could have dbled 3NT, but he did not do it. I would think that this means that opps indeed have ♠ stopper.
The auction may not be a stopper ask for spades by agreement, but in fact north should have thought about ♠ stopper. He should have something in ♥ as well, but many north would bid 3NT without ♥ stopper, because there is hope that south shortage in ♠ and strength in HCP includes ♥ stopper.

[han]

Let me repeat what others have already said:

2♠ is a strong club raise and does not specifically ask for a spade stopper. It doesn't show nor deny a spade stopper. Advancer would bid this way with AQx xx Kxx Qxxxx as well as xx AKx Kxxx Jxxx.

The 3NT bid should show stoppers in both majors.

I play opener's double as penalty ("they are going down"), not lead directing. I would lead a heart.