[mike777]

In the media reports on the debate over Iraq what I see and read seems to say that the Congress and much of the Public do not think we should be involved in the current civil war in Iraq. The logic I see reported seems to be:
1) There is a civil war in Iraq.
2) The USA should not be involved in other countries Civil wars.
3) Pull out now.

This seems illogical at best. The USA, Europe and many other coutries have been involved in other countries civil wars forever. The USA alone has been involved in countless civil wars in my lifetime alone.


If the argument is we or Europe or China should not be involved in this THIS civil war but it is ok in many others I have not seen it. Perhaps someone else has seen these media reports and I just missed it. It is the missing media reports, not the issue whether or not there is another side to the argument that concerns me.

[pbleighton]

"This seems illogical at best. The USA, Europe and many other coutries have been involved in other countries civil wars forever. The USA alone has been involved in countless civil wars in my lifetime alone."

This seems illogical at best. Just because we've made mistakes in the past, why should we continue to make them?

Peter

[mike777]

pbleighton, on Feb 14 2007, 10:00 AM, said:

"This seems illogical at best. The USA, Europe and many other coutries have been involved in other countries civil wars forever. The USA alone has been involved in countless civil wars in my lifetime alone."

This seems illogical at best. Just because we've made mistakes in the past, why should we continue to make them?

Peter

Ok, Peter, If I understand you then you think the USA should never be involved in other countries Civil Wars. At least that is what I read your statement to be saying.

[Al_U_Card]

You can't generalize. If Quebec had separated from Canada and a war had ensued (Quebec doesn't have an army, but they have a lot of hungry civil-servants that like to leave for lunch by 11:30) then the US would have probably got involved. Guatelmala? Maybe. Iraq......well, there's that pesky oil-thingie again.....Fiji?

International diplomacy can be a method that works. It depends on the place and timing.

[mike777]

I hope you guys read what I posted, I am not interested in the argument, I am concerned with the lack of media reporting. If you think no country should or should not be involved in another country's civil war fine.

[pbleighton]

"I hope you guys read what I posted, I am not interested in the argument, I am concerned with the lack of media reporting. If you think no country should or should not be involved in another country's civil war fine."

Not so fast, Mike.

You made an affirmative judgment that it is illogical that people object to our involvement in the Iraqi civil war because we have previously been involved in other civil wars. My post is in response to your affirmative judgment.

Peter

[mike777]

pbleighton, on Feb 14 2007, 10:19 AM, said:

"I hope you guys read what I posted, I am not interested in the argument, I am concerned with the lack of media reporting. If you think no country should or should not be involved in another country's civil war fine."

Not so fast, Mike.

You made an affirmative judgment that it is illogical that people object to our involvement in the Iraqi civil war because we have previously been involved in other civil wars. My post is in response to your affirmative judgment.

Peter

no I did not say that but I understand how you might think so, sigh. I did make an effort to be clear what I thought was illogical. Nevermind.

[Al_U_Card]

According to little dick:

"In his first news conference in two months, Bush said Iraqi insurgents will do all they can to "undermine the Maliki government and its Baghdad security plan." Bush said insurgents are also trying hard to turn American public opinion against the war."....CNN

Can you imagine their audacity?! Freedom fighters hoping to overthrow the invading oppressor and their puppet regime by any means possible! How dare they?

[Al_U_Card]

Further meanderings of the little one:

"President Bush said Wednesday he did not know if orders to use Iranian-made weapons to kill U.S. troops in Iraq came from the highest levels of the Tehran g ..."...CNN


Sound familiar? Perhaps less definitive than the Iraqi-WMD and terrorist connections but just as ominous. Lets hope that they don't find any Russian or Chinese weapons......where will they find the troops?

[luke warm]

Al_U_Card, on Feb 14 2007, 12:25 PM, said:

Can you imagine their audacity?! Freedom fighters hoping to overthrow the invading oppressor and their puppet regime by any means possible! How dare they?

freedom fighters? puppet regime? these are terrorists and they're attempting to bring down a democratically elected gov't... but i do find it interesting that you'd refer to terrorists as freedom fighters

[jtfanclub]

luke warm, on Feb 14 2007, 01:21 PM, said:

freedom fighters? puppet regime? these are terrorists and they're attempting to bring down a democratically elected gov't... but i do find it interesting that you'd refer to terrorists as freedom fighters

Do you seriously believe most of the people shooting at us are terrorists?

I would be willing to wager that there are more people shooting at us in Iraq than there are genuine terrorists on the planet. Besides, Mutaqa al-Sadr, whose people are the guys shooting at us the most at the moment, IS a member of the democratically elected government.

[mike777]

hmm I thought that Sadr at the moment has Fled to Iran.

[Al_U_Card]

When the scales fall from your eyes, you will see "Property of the U.S. government" stamped on them.

[pbleighton]

"Can you imagine their audacity?! Freedom fighters hoping to overthrow the invading oppressor and their puppet regime by any means possible! How dare they?"

I don't agree with this. My take:

There is a civil war going on over there. We will be one of one of the targets as long as we stay there.

Peter

[mike777]

If being a target in another country's civil war is a reason to pull out, then we should never involve our military in any country's civil war. Yet we are in Korea, the Balkans and many urge us to go to Darfur. We are or would be targets in all of those places. You are saying if we are a target we need to pull out.

I think we need another more complicated test. What that is I am not fully sure of.

[Al_U_Card]

Hey, in any war, there are always 2 good guys and 2 bad guys.....just depends on what side you are on.

One of the (many) reasons why the middle east has been a battleground has been the various factions of Islam when paired up with tribal rivalries. We, in North America, tend to forget that the melting pot created an amalgam that greatly reduced this fractious tendency.

[pbleighton]

"If being a target in another country's civil war is a reason to pull out, then we should never involve our military in any country's civil war. Yet we are in Korea, the Balkans and many urge us to go to Darfur. We are or would be targets in all of those places. You are saying if we are a target we need to pull out.

I think we need another more complicated test. What that is I am not fully sure of."

We need an awfully good reason to be involved in another country's civil war.

As to your examples:
1. Korea hasn't been in a civil war for 50 years, and we shouldn't have been involved to begin with.
2. We shouldn't be in the Balkans.
3. We shouldn't invade Darfur.

Another you conveniently forgot to cite is Vietnam. We shouldn't have been there either.

The test is difficult but simple. It is a very rare instance that we should be involved in another country's civil war. The burden of proof in any particular case is on those who advocate it.

A history of mistakes doesn't justify another one.

Peter

[mike777]

Korea is still in a state of war as far as I know. At least my relatives get combat pay there.

I think if we get involved in any Civil War, being a target and making numerous mistakes must be taken as a 100% given.

[jtfanclub]

mike777, on Feb 14 2007, 03:27 PM, said:

hmm I thought that Sadr at the moment has Fled to Iran.

Doesn't keep his people from fighting. Doesn't mean that he's resigned his position as Minister either, or the head of the largest voting block in Parliment.

[mike777]

Hmm sounds like a vote of confidence in Iraq if I ever heard one, perhaps our leaders in Congress will flee to Iran also?