[jvage]

You are third at favourable (IMP) and have:
J6
J92
Q2
AKT983

Partner and opps are strong players (Norwegian Premier League). LHO opens a weak 2♥, partner enters with 2♠ and RHO bids 3♥ (not invitational).

What do you bid?

John

[inquiry]

3♠

[pclayton]

Playing R/S stuff, 4♣ would be fitted, but I assume you'd have mentioned this.

Pard probably has a stiff heart. With some 5=1=3(4)=4(3), pard might double, so I place pard with 5 pretty good spades or 6. I don't like the idea poor pard is going to get tapped, but hopefully he can knock out my LHO's outside honor 1st and keep control.

So I try 3♠ too.

[han]

Do they really recommend 4C as fit-bid here? I find this very surprising, the opponents are not likely to bid 5H. I'm all for allowing a unpassed hand to bid her suit.

Ok, 3S for me too, not so easy though.

[Apollo81]

4♣. Can always correct 4♦/4♥ to 4♠

[pbleighton]

Ben, are you replacing Claus as the designated huge-poster?

Peter

[gwnn]

I'm pretty sure 4♣ isn't fit-showing in R/S. But I have been wrong before.

[whereagles]

4♣ seems ok. Doesn't matter whether pard will take this as fitted or not

[Edmunte1]

Tough one, John. My choice is 4♣ natural and forcing. All the other calls seems worse:
-3♠ -playing a 5-2 fit and getting shortened? (5143, 5152, 5233 are likely shapes)
-doubling seems even worse, 4/5♦ will be often partner's call

So though it's pushy and we may end overboard, at least we will play in the right denomination

[helene_t]

Dbl. Just in case p is able to pass, bid 3NT or 4♣. My next bid is probably 4♠ but that doesn't terrify me.

[pclayton]

gwnn, on Feb 13 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure 4♣ isn't fit-showing in R/S. But I have been wrong before.

I can't find any specific reference in R/S to this auction. There are some similar sequences (like where LHO opens 1♠, pard overcalls, and RHO makes a preemptive raise).

My gut says its fitted, but perhaps thats only playable by a passed hand.

[jvage]

The reason I found this interesting was that I had a discussion with Tor Helness in the bar after the play where he brought up this hand. He was very critical (he is known to voice his opinions clearly!) to his teammates 3♠ on this hand. Since I (and as it later proved almost all our premier league players) also bid 3♠ I was very interested in his opinions. At the time I felt I had a choice, and that my bad result was partly bad luck.

My Romanian friend Edmunte (Hi Eddie ) got a good analysis here, and Appollo and Whereagles also found what Tor believed was the only good call, a natural 4♣. The point is that partner is known to be short in hearts (he will often be void and have a singleton at most, remember opponents are at unfavourable at IMPs), you definitely prefer to ruff hearts from a short club-holding (the short hearts also indicates some club-length) than from 5 spades. If RHO holds 4 spades (as is quite likely) partner will be shortened. If you bid 4♣ you still have a good chance to get to 4♠ when it is correct, that is when partner got at least 6. Even if partner got as little support as AKxxxx,- , KJxxx, xx 5♣ is still OK (but you would prefer 4♠).

This also shows why double is not a good call, partner will almost always bid either 3♠ (could still be only 5 and you would not know if you should raise) or 4♦ (actually indicating that clubs is the right strain, but you would not know for sure).

Partners hand was:
AK974
-
K986
QJ62

He raised 3♠ to 4, and with spades 4-2 (as expected) this was hopeless, while 6♣ was laydown.

PS: This hand was from last years PL, not from the last weekend.

John

[pclayton]

jvage, on Feb 15 2007, 12:50 AM, said:

The reason I found this interesting was that I had a discussion with Tor Helness in the bar after the play where he brought up this hand. He was very critical (he is known to voice his opinions clearly!) to his teammates 3♠ on this hand. Since I (and as it later proved almost all our premier league players) also bid 3♠ I was very interested in his opinions. At the time I felt I had a choice, and that my bad result was partly bad luck.

My Romanian friend Edmunte (Hi Eddie ) got a good analysis here, and Appollo and Whereagles also found what Tor believed was the only good call, a natural 4♣. The point is that partner is known to be short in hearts (he will often be void and have a singleton at most, remember opponents are at unfavourable at IMPs), you definitely prefer to ruff hearts from a short club-holding (the short hearts also indicates some club-length) than from 5 spades. If RHO holds 4 spades (as is quite likely) partner will be shortened. If you bid 4♣ you still have a good chance to get to 4♠ when it is correct, that is when partner got at least 6. Even if partner got as little support as AKxxxx,- , KJxxx, xx 5♣ is still OK (but you would prefer 4♠).

This also shows why double is not a good call, partner will almost always bid either 3♠ (could still be only 5 and you would not know if you should raise) or 4♦ (actually indicating that clubs is the right strain, but you would not know for sure).

Partners hand was:
AK974
-
K986
QJ62

He raised 3♠ to 4, and with spades 4-2 (as expected) this was hopeless, while 6♣ was laydown.

PS: This hand was from last years PL, not from the last weekend.

John

Did Tor consider a double with your pard's hand? I don't think 2♠ is clear at all with this 5=0=4=4.

[mike777]

Maybe this is a case of not making a takeout x with a void? But 2s seems ok.

[jvage]

Didn't discuss the 2♠ bid with Tor, but I think this may be one of those regional differences. Around here players tend to bid good 5-card majors when possible, also on hands where I have seen players from other nations double. 2♠ was definitely the majority choice in our Premier League judging from the results printout.

John

[mikeh]

I was toying with a double of 3♥. But I had decided against it before seeing the results. I was never considering 3♠: I have not made that kind of raise in as many years as I can remember, but one of my partners is prone to doing it and the only results I remember are bad. So I think 4♣ is the lesser of several evil choices.

At least, if partner bids 4♠ over 4♣, you are going to be reasonably optimistic that he has 6+. If he bids 4♦, now your 4♠ still gives him a chance.

Double will usually work almost as well as, or as well as 4♣, but he might bid 5♦..... it's not the 4♦ call that scares me, since I will retreat to 4♠ and hope to get lucky... but the idea of playing this in 5♠ terrifies me.

[fred]

I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is).

I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C.

What is R/S?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pclayton]

fred, on Feb 16 2007, 11:00 AM, said:

I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is).

I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C.

What is R/S?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Robson / Segal.

Not a bad player either.

[fred]

pclayton, on Feb 16 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

fred, on Feb 16 2007, 11:00 AM, said:

I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is).

I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C.

What is R/S?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Robson / Segal.

Not a bad player either.

Agree - far to good to suggest playing 4C as fit-showing here I think.

You sure he advocates this treatment?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pclayton]

fred, on Feb 16 2007, 11:21 AM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 16 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

fred, on Feb 16 2007, 11:00 AM, said:

I agree with Tor on this one (not surprising - I think he is one of the best there is).

I can't imagine bidding anything other than 4C.

What is R/S?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Robson / Segal.

Not a bad player either.

Agree - far to good to suggest playing 4C as fit-showing here I think.

You sure he advocates this treatment?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

In certain stressed auctions, 4 of a minor is fitted, but its not clear he advocates it here.

I tend to think he doesn't.