[AlexOgan]

What methods would you want to play over the following nebulous 1D?

1D =
14-16 balanced
or 11-15, 0+ diamonds, promises a 4 card major, not 5+/5+ minors.

The rest of the system includes strong 1C (16+ unbal or 17+ bal), mini NT (10-13), 5-card majors, 2C = 11-15 5+C no 4cM, 2D = 11-15 5+D no 4cM, 2NT = 11-15 5+/5+ minors -- so I think my description of the hand types in 1D is correct.

Partner and I are having trouble deciding how to continue after this 1D. We're willing to play entirely different methods here from what we play over 1M, so that's not an issue.

Any suggestions, or pointers to notes dealing with a similar 1D?

Thanks,
Alex

[inquiry]

Good luck finding a suitable method, your 1♦ opening will be very frequent occurance....

14-16 balanced has a reasonably high frequency
and 11-15+ with a four card major and any other distribution is also very frequent (BTW, I don't know how you have a hand that has a four card major that is also 5+/5+ in the minors as that is a minimum of 14 cards), will be even a higher frequency.

No doubt all your other opening bids will be narrorly defined, and nebulous 1D bids have been a part of a lot of precision systems for a long time, but non of them as widely inclusive as yours. I am more worried about the rebids than the initial responses.

[Echognome]

I've played two different methods over a possibly short minor. They are:

Method 1:
Dbl ♦ or any hand with 15+
--2♦ by advancer is to play opposite the ♦ hand, else bid again
1♥/1♠/2♣ Natural overcalls
1NT Weak takeout of ♦ (~11-14 hcp)
2♦ Michael's (both majors)
2♥/2♠/3♣ Weak Jump Overcalls

Method 2:
Dbl Takeout of ♦
1♥/1♠/2♣/2♦ 3+ cards, second longest suit in a canape hand. (~7-15 hcp)
--Next suit by advancer is pass/correct
--Next suit +1 is an artificial game try
1NT 15-18 bal
2♥ 5/5 ♥ and another suit
2♠ Weak Jump Overcall
2NT 5/5 2-suited without ♥

They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Method 1 can be awkward sorting out the ♦ hand from the strong hand if there is preemption. Method 2 puts everyone at a guess with the canape overcall.

Note, I am sure there are refinements of each of these methods. I'm simply stating what I have played in partnerships. The main thing I found is to be on solid ground as to what the double means and what the cuebid means.

[pclayton]

There's a lot of methods you can use. I'm partial to:

1 major; natural - 4+
1N - natural; 8-11
2C - natural. It can be GF (with 3♣ as the invite), or 11+
2D - inverted; limit raise +, but you should have 5. Specifically discuss the 1♦-2♦-3♣ sequence (can it be a 3325?)
2H - You can play this as Reverse Flannery or a SJS. WJS work OK with a strong club setting too.
2S - This can me a mixed raise in diamonds, or a SJS.
2N - 11+ - 13 (10 is too weak opposite a precision 1D)
3C - invititational
3h / 3S - either preemptive or splinter raises of 1D
3N - 14-16

etc..

A direct 4C and 4D work well as major transfers if opener can be a 14-16 balanced hand.

[AlexOgan]

Inquiry -- You're right of course that including "not 5+/5+ minors" in the description was unneccesary. I guess that my point was that the 5+/5+ hands are taken out of the 1D, because 2NT shows them.

Echognome -- I'm looking for help with our response/rebid methods after this 1D, not methods to compete against opponents' 1D.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Feb 12 2007, 03:24 PM, said:

2D - inverted; limit raise +, but you should have 5. Specifically discuss the 1♦-2♦-3♣ sequence (can it be a 3325?)

Well, you ahve a much bigger problem.. 3♣ there could be 4-2-0-7 if I read the notes correctly. In addition, I assume 1NT opening bid would be 11-13 hcp, so 3-3-2-5 is probably ruled out on this auction as 2NT rebid or open 2♣ (or 1NT) seems the desired bid.

I suspect this means after a 1D-2D auction, 2D has to deny a major, and opener needs a number of bids to show his various hands...

Maybe something like,

3NT = 14-16 assuming 2D denies a major
2H = club/heart two suiter, very short diamonds (see 3H)
2S = club/spades two suiter, very short diamonds (see 3S)
2NT = club one suiter. extremely short diamonds
3C = clubs, tolerance for diamonds
3D = diamonds
3H/3S = fragment, shows bid suit, clubs AND DIAMONDS

This might help unravel some of the hand types and give info about rather or not there is a diamond fit or not immediately.

[Echognome]

AlexOgan, on Feb 12 2007, 12:24 PM, said:

Echognome -- I'm looking for help with our response/rebid methods after this 1D, not methods to compete against opponents' 1D.

Sorry, misinterpreted what you meant by "over 1♦".

Can I presume relay-methods are not desired/allowed?

Here's a Natural Method
1♥ 4+ F1
--1♠ Natural, but not balanced (will have longer minor, then a modified XYZ with 1N being bid your longer minor)
--1NT 14-16 Bal (then 2-way nmf)
--2♣ 54 minors either way (no false pref)
--2♦ Single-suited ♦
--2♥ 3+♥ (2♠ nat reverse, 2NT ART ask of 3/4 card support, min/max)
--2♠ Unknown SPL, 4♥ (2NT asks)
1♠ 4+ F1 (similar to above)
1N 6-9 Bal
2♣/2♦ Natural, Inverted, I find 4+ fine if you have a rebid in mind (e.g. 2NT)
2♥+ To taste (can be rev Flannery, some two-suited INV hands, SJS, WJS, etc)

[Adebisi]

Hi basically i play same system but 14-16 NT.So 1♦ is 11-13 bal, 11-15 4441,or 11-15 4MAJ/5+minor.
*1♦-1♥: 1♠=4♠ could have 4S/3H/5minor and min, 1NT=NAT,
2♣/♦=5+minor/4S/0-2♥, 2♠=max 4S3H5+minor,
2NT=max 4♥, 3♣/♦=max 6minor/4♠, 3♥=min
4♥/6+minor
*1♦-1♠: same style as above
*1NT/2NT/3NT=nat 5-10(11)/11-12/13-15
*1♦-2♣/♦=FG 4+suit: 2♦/3♣=min 5+minor/4MAJ, 2♥/♠=max
4MAJ/5+minor, 2NT=min bal/4441 w/o supp, 3NT=
max 4441 w/o supp
*1♦-2♥/♠=4-8 6+suit so 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♥=inv 6+suit or
1♦-1♠-2minor-2♠=inv 6+suit
*1♦-3♣/♦=INV 6+suit.
This is kind of short and easy version, works fine.

[jtfanclub]

I going to assume that 1D denies a 5+ card major. I don't see anything wrong with:

1H: weak inquiry (0-8, including all 0-5 hands). Opener bids 1S with 11-13 with a long minor and 4 card major, 1NT with 11-16 balanced, and 2C/2D with 14-15 with a long minor and 4 card major.
1S: strong inquiry (9+). Opener bids 1NT with the 14-16 balanced, all other bids show the 11-15 hands. Highest possible rebid is 3H (14-15 hcp, 4-4 in the majors, 4+ card minor).
1NT: Balanced 6-8
2C/2D/2H/2S: 5-8 single suited.
2NT: 5-8 both minors.

After 1D-1H-1S, use 1NT to play, 2C as pass/correct for the minor, 2H for pass/correct for the major.
The others should be pretty obvious, I think.

It seems to me that it would make more sense to have 1D be balanced 10-13 or 10-15 with a long minor and 4 card major, and use a 14-16 opening 1NT. I'd rather have the 'outliers' be strong than weak in the event of interference.

But that's just me.

[Apollo81]

AlexOgan, on Feb 12 2007, 04:05 PM, said:

What methods would you want to play over the following nebulous 1D?

1D = 
14-16 balanced
or 11-15, 0+ diamonds, promises a 4 card major, not 5+/5+ minors.

The rest of the system includes strong 1C (16+ unbal or 17+ bal), mini NT (10-13), 5-card majors, 2C = 11-15 5+C no 4cM, 2D = 11-15 5+D no 4cM, 2NT = 11-15 5+/5+ minors -- so I think my description of the hand types in 1D is correct.

Partner and I are having trouble deciding how to continue after this 1D.  We're willing to play entirely different methods here from what we play over 1M, so that's not an issue.

Any suggestions, or pointers to notes dealing with a similar 1D?

Thanks,
Alex

My comments:

(1) I prefer 14-16 to a weaker NT primarily due to interference to the 1♦ opener. Hands without extra values (11-13) are easier to bid than hands with extras (14-16) in these competitive auctions. I think the overall quality of your results after a 1NT opening will be similar regardless of the range.

(2) I think you have the right idea to take hands with 4M out of your 2-level openings. I think "one-suited" 2m openings that might have a 4M are a losing proposition mostly because you constantly have to check if pard has 4M when you have a good hand. If you don't have to check, you give a lot less information away and tend to right-side the contract more. You can also play penalty doubles in competition, which I think is clearly better than playing negative doubles catering to opener having an unlikely pattern. You might decide to play 2♣-2♥-2♠ as a 3145/2146 pattern; this may help you find diamond fits and also give you a guaranteed safe landing spot when responder has 5-5 majors. (assume 2♣-2♥ is NFConst)

(3) Playing your structure, I would open virtually all minor suit (5332) patterns 1NT or 1♦. It's better to have some shape for your 2m openings.

(4) Playing your structure, I recommend playing basically standard responses: 1M natural and forcing, 1NT NF 6-10, 2m = natural inv+. If you are willing to bid 1♦-1♠-2♥ with x4x6, then you don't need 1♦-1M-2♣ as a natural bid. You can use this to differentiate good hands with support from bad hands with support.

---

I play very similar methods. The differences are that my 1NT is 14-16, my 2♦ also shows 4+♣, and my 2NT shows x4x6 10-13. I think the latter will cause you some problems if you open 1♦ with it. I can still open my 5-5 minors hands at the 2-level (2♦).

If you'd like to look at my notes, you can email me at nobleshore@gmail.com and I'll give them to you.

[Vilgan]

Its hard to clarify values etc especially in competition because 1♦ could be 11-13 without diamonds, or 14-16.. again without lots of diamonds.

I would personally switch out the 2♦ and 1♦ meaning somewhat. Basically move the 5+ diamonds meaning to 1♦. So opening 1♦ promises EITHER 5 diamonds or a strong NT. Now make your 2♦ opener for hands that have less than 5 diamonds, and cannot fit in the category of a strong NT or a weak NT. Mini roman or the precision diamond both work.

Bidding after that nebulous ♦ is hard, but perhaps the answer is to just adjust the meaning rather than devising a special system for responses. This is especially true in any kind of competition where figuring out if opener has 11 points or 16 can be hard.

Eric

[Kaapo]

There seems to be a lot of Swedish players playing this style, with a Magic Diamond -like 2m openings:

1♣ 16/17+
1♦ a) 11-13 NT, 11-15, 4c major and 5+ in a minor, or c) 11-15, any 4441
1♥♠ 11-15, 5+c
1NT 14-16 (or maybe 9-12 NV)
2♣♦ 11-15, 5+c, unbalanced w/o 4cM (that is, either 6+ cards or both minors 5+4+).

The most prominent supporters of the structure are the national team pair Peter Bertheau - Fredrik Nyström. They play relays, and over the 1♦-opening, 1♥ is either a natural-ish forcing bid, a balanced game-try or the start of a gameforcing relay sequence. You can find some of the structure in their Warsaw convention card.

I've seen many other Swedes play a similar opening structure but was unable to find detailed CC's. Here's another but it seems very much like Bertheau and Nyström's relay system: Auby-Hallberg and notes. Some Swedish juniors play a similar system with more natural responses. Unfortunately their CC's aren't all that detailed. Take a look at the Bangkok CC's if you like. Here's one more of the lady pair Tengå - Rudenstål.