[erki_]

Scoring: ????

---

Playing Fantunes I got to hold this hand in South. Since the auction likely should not be different from any other natural system I decided to post it here.
Partner opened 1♠ and I responded 2♦ (GF) and the bidding went on 2♠-3♥-4♦, without knowing partner's extra strength, I now decided that 4♠ would be the place to play, but partner continued 4NT (showing slam interest and even keycards), we ended up in playing 7♦, which went down a lot. Of course 6NT was a laydown and we would have reached it easily, but I assumed that spades were the agreed suit and partner that diamonds and that lead us to wrong tracks. Most of the problems would not have been there of course if I had bid 2NT or 3NT instead of 3♥, but..
My question is, that are there any general rules, when the suit is agreed and cuebidding starts? For example, does 1♠-2♥-3♥-3♠ show spades or is it a cuebid? What about 1♦-2♥-2♠-3♥-4♦?

[bid_em_up]

erki_, on Feb 8 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: ????

♠ KQJTxx ♥ AKx ♦ Axx ♣ x ♠ A ♥ QTxx ♦ KJxxx ♣ KQx

Playing Fantunes I got to hold this hand in South. Since the auction likely should not be different from any other natural system I decided to post it here.
Partner opened 1♠ and I responded 2♦ (GF) and the bidding went on 2♠-3♥-4♦, without knowing partner's extra strength, I now decided that 4♠ would be the place to play, but partner continued 4NT (showing slam interest and even keycards), we ended up in playing 7♦, which went down a lot. Of course 6NT was a laydown and we would have reached it easily, but I assumed that spades were the agreed suit and partner that diamonds and that lead us to wrong tracks. Most of the problems would not have been there of course if I had bid 2NT or 3NT instead of 3♥, but..
My question is, that are there any general rules, when the suit is agreed and cuebidding starts? For example, does 1♠-2♥-3♥-3♠ show spades or is it a cuebid? What about 1♦-2♥-2♠-3♥-4♦?

I think you should rebid 2N (or 3N) over 2S (not 3H). If partner had 4 hearts, wouldnt he have shown them over 2D? You have stops in all the side suits, show them. (This, of course, assumes that in Fantunes, 2N/3N have no other special meanings....I dont play it, so I dont know if it does or not).

Now 3D (or possibly 4C splinter; should agree diamonds) by partner would set diamonds as trumps.

Problem solved.

Jmoo.

[inquiry]

I am not thrilled with your auction, as shown (it didn't show the remaining part), but how in the world did you end up in a grand slam off a keycard (north has two for diamonds, and you had south show an even number of key cards, which must be two?). I mean the real wheels fell off the cart when after the 4NT (even) keycard response.

A second thing I don't like, which was already touched on by bid_em_up was the 3♥ rebid. Come on, save space and describe your hand with a 2NT (or 3NT) rebid. If your partner had 4♥ he would have rebid 2♥ and your heart suit is nothing to brag about. And should your partner not have the club ACE, you may very well go beyond your best spot of 3NT. Your hand doesn't scream slam opposite a minimum 2♠ rebid with a misfit, and only 15 hcp so there really is no reason to reverse here.

Your partner's 2♠ rebid was a tad bid conservative. I think I would have raised diamonds immediately and then used blackwood by him to take over control. He is in much better position to determine the correct level with his five loser hand after blackwood than you. And he can direct the hand to a 6♠ contract due to the stregnth of his suit.

[kenrexford]

Two rules that I like solve this problem and the other one suggested.

First, no bouncingt between the majors. If 1♠-P-2♥-P-3♥, hearts are trumps, period. So, 3♠ is a cuebid.

Second, when two suits are viable fits, use Flag RKCB. Flag RKCB means using the cheapest RKCB option for the cheapest suit and the highest RKCB option for the highest suit.

In the example, after the 4♠ call, spades or diamonds could be the focus suit. 4NT would be RKCB for diamonds and 5♣ RKCB for spades.

Had you elected to use RKCB after 4♦, 4♥ would be RKCB for diamonds and 4NT RKCB for spades. This, of course, brings in a secondary concept, namely that agreement from partner on diamonds makes a second-bid suit (hearts) out-of-focus. Also, this assumes that you use the out-of-focus major as RKCB for the minor.

[FrancesHinden]

inquiry, on Feb 8 2007, 04:15 PM, said:

I am not thrilled with your auction, as shown (it didn't show the remaining part), but how in the world did you end up in a grand slam off a keycard (north has two for diamonds, and you had south show an even number of key cards, which must be two?).

North showed 2 keycards for Diamonds.
South thought North had known 4 keycards for Spades.

To assess a few general points:
-The problem (as nearly always) isn't the methods, it's the use of the methods. South overbid. As many have said, 3H was rather a misdescription (although I am quite happy with the 2S rebid from North).

- The way the auction went, 4S was a cuebid for diamonds (although possibly a passable cuebid). South hadn't shown any spade support; diamonds is the only suit bid and raised.

- Even thinking spades were trumps, couldn't North have slam interest and two keycards? By not raising diamonds at once, North has implied good spades, and I would have thought that something like KQJ10xxx Kx AQx x is big slam interest opposite a red two-suiter with secondary spade support. We're back to the 'South overbid' problem.

- As for the general rules, these are difficult and depend on your other agreements. I have discussed your sample auctions in my 2/1 partnership, and we play that 1S - 2H - 3H - 3S shows spade support (although it has to be a holding that makes playing in spades a live option i.e. not xxx), while 1S - 2H - 2S - 3H - 4D is a cue for hearts. The difference is that responder has shown a serious heart suit on the second auction - we play this as virtually confirming that hearts are trumps. But then we have another agreement that in fact 1S - 2H - 2S is artificial, and 1S - 2H - 2S - 2NT is a relay; breaking the relay is used to show a very good heart suit.

Here's a try at some general rules, but it is difficult to get ones that apply 100% of the time:

- After opening - response - raise of response - opener's suit (1S - 2H - 3H - 3S) "both" suits are agreed. We can start cuebidding, but either major - in this example - might be the final trump suit. Some people play 6-ace/2Q RKCB after this; we just say that responder's suit is trumps for RKCB responses.

- Except for the above rule, once a suit has been bid and voluntarily raised - not just simple preference - that suit is trumps. You can only "un-trump" it by jumping to slam in your own suit.

- If you had a chance to bid a suit naturally earlier in the auction and didn't, you can't suddenly suggest it as a trump suit later. [I know whereagles in particular strongly disagrees, but I think I'm right(!)]. 1D - 1H - 3D - 3H - 4C isn't a sudden discovery of a club suit you forgot to mention, it's a cue for hearts.

- In some auctions you can explicitly agree a suit; if you don't do so it hasn't been agreed (1C - 1S - 2NT - 3D - 3S - 4D is natural (canape), 4H agrees spades)

[Free]

It's better to relay 2NT with such hand, partner can show a 3 card ♦ support. Then you can start cues, and you can use/skip 3NT to show minimum or maximum hand.

Imo the 4♦ bid sets trump very clearly. Partner can only set trumps by rebidding ♠ again. That's how I'm used to play it.

[mike777]

Ok since no one asked why not just bid 3D over 2D I assume I only promise 3 to an honor and no extras.

[FrancesHinden]

mike777, on Feb 8 2007, 11:09 PM, said:

Ok since no one asked why not just bid 3D over 2D I assume I only promise 3 to an honor and no extras.

Becasue most people prefer 4-card support to raise partner's suit at the first opportunity, and while you might raise on 3-card support sometimes, on this hand you have a beautiful spade suit that is much more likely to be trumps than diamonds. But bidding 1S - 2D - 2S - 2NT/3NT - 3D/4D you tell partner you are serious about spades and diamonds; raise diamonds on the first round and partner won't know about the spades.

If partner doesn't bid 2NT/3NT over 2S you are just as well placed: over 3H (which should be a big red 2-suiter) you have an easy 4D call; over 3S you will play in spades; over 3D (forcing or not) you raise diamonds and are likely to drive to a diamond slam.

[Apollo81]

erki_, on Feb 8 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

...Most of the problems would not have been there of course if I had bid 2NT or 3NT instead of 3♥...

There's your answer. (2NT)

[kenrexford]

Whether the auction to the issue is good, bad, or insane, the issue raised seems to be lost by many.

Obviously, there is an occasion for an auction to start 1♠-P-2♦-P-2♠-P-3♥-P-4♦. What Opener and Responder should have for this auction to occur depends upon a lot of style decisions. However, once this auction does occur, what should Responder do? This seems to be the question that is being ignored, largely.

It seems to me that Responder should, in most styles, be allowed to now offer spades as trumps when holding a stiff honor, as better than 5♦ or 4NT (to play). Otherwise, Opener and Responder face difficult issues and lose flexibility earlier in the auction. It also seems logical to me that rebidding responder's unsupported second suit immediately after support of his initial suit should be artificial. As it is the cheapest call, it should agree diamonds, the cheaper focus suit. (The "focus" suits being diamonds -- the only supported suit -- and spades -- the preferred major-alternative suit.)

This principle, if sound and agreed, will help in many other auctions that may appear different but carry the same concerns. As a simple example, consider 1♠-P-2♦-P-2NT-P-3♥. Here, the same general principle should apply. It seems to me that Opener should be able to bid 3♠ to agree diamonds, for similar reasons.

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on Feb 9 2007, 04:55 PM, said:

It also seems logical to me that rebidding responder's unsupported second suit immediately after support of his initial suit should be artificial. As it is the cheapest call, it should agree diamonds, the cheaper focus suit. (The "focus" suits being diamonds -- the only supported suit -- and spades -- the preferred major-alternative suit.)

I don't know why, but your "logical" interpretations always seem to end up assuming artificiality.

I'm a simple soul: 1S - 2D - 2S - 3H - 4D - 4H shows 5 hearts and 6 diamonds.

[kenrexford]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 9 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 9 2007, 04:55 PM, said:

It also seems logical to me that rebidding responder's unsupported second suit immediately after support of his initial suit should be artificial.  As it is the cheapest call, it should agree diamonds, the cheaper focus suit.  (The "focus" suits being diamonds -- the only supported suit -- and spades -- the preferred major-alternative suit.)

I don't know why, but your "logical" interpretations always seem to end up assuming artificiality.

I'm a simple soul: 1S - 2D - 2S - 3H - 4D - 4H shows 5 hearts and 6 diamonds.

Why ever bid what you have?