[Winstonm]

Simple question. If you play Jacoby transfers and Texas transfers, is there a standard division of the meanings of these two sequences:

1N-2H
2S-5S

1N-4H
4S-5S

[Apollo81]

defining a division of meanings for such sequences is a waste of time and wont help you win at bridge

[Winstonm]

Apollo81, on Feb 6 2007, 10:33 PM, said:

defining a division of meanings for such sequences is a waste of time and wont help you win at bridge

Meckstroth and Rodwell's 800+ pages of system notes might be in disagreement of your assessment.

[awm]

Well we know that:

1NT - 2♥
2♠ - 4NT

is quantitative, whereas:

1NT - 4♥
4♠ - 4NT

is keycard.

So along similar lines, perhaps:

1NT - 2♥
2♠ - 5♠

is quantitative (bid slam if you have max/prime values) and:

1NT - 4♥
4♠ - 5♠

is asking about trump honors.

But I agree with Noble that this is not really an important auction to have agreements. In general having agreements is a good thing, but I'd prefer to focus on various competitive auctions that come up frequently rather than very unusual slam try auctions that can normally be handled pretty well using other sequences.

[cherdano]

Winstonm, on Feb 6 2007, 09:38 PM, said:

Apollo81, on Feb 6 2007, 10:33 PM, said:

defining a division of meanings for such sequences is a waste of time and wont help you win at bridge

Meckstroth and Rodwell's 800+ pages of system notes might be in disagreement of your assessment.

Ok Winston, I bet that in their allegedly 800+ pages, at least one of the two sequences is undefined.
Unfortunately, this bet doesn't make much sense, as we can't easily find out who would win...

[inquiry]

I think the first one is Slam forcing, and is a grand slam try, based upon power. Why? you can make a slam try and stay safely at the 4 level on other auctions to have 1N=2H=2S=5S invite slam gets you to a level too far too often.

I think the second one is a simple top honor slam try. Something like...

QJT98xxxx void AKQJ void (ok a little extreme), but this gives the idea.

[Winstonm]

cherdano, on Feb 6 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Feb 6 2007, 09:38 PM, said:

Apollo81, on Feb 6 2007, 10:33 PM, said:

defining a division of meanings for such sequences is a waste of time and wont help you win at bridge

Meckstroth and Rodwell's 800+ pages of system notes might be in disagreement of your assessment.

Ok Winston, I bet that in their allegedly 800+ pages, at least one of the two sequences is undefined.
Unfortunately, this bet doesn't make much sense, as we can't easily find out who would win...

I would bet you are right we will never find out.

This is a simple question just for curiosity sake - no big agenda or answer in mind.
However, bridge historically has quite a few "obscure" bids that at one time had assigned meanings. It used to be that an opening 5H/5S was a trump ask, bid 6 with 1 top honor and bid 7 with 2.

It ain't no big deal, but it seems an easy to remember general consensus would be nice for the posted sequences. Just as an idea, perhaps one should be a trump ask and the other a solid suit showing bid.

If it doesn't matter, the thread will die a quick and easy death.

[Apollo81]

You should have an agreement about what a clearly non-preemptive jump to 5M means...this sort of thing can be applied in a wide variety of situations.

I'm currently playing transfers at the 3-level after 1♥-1♠-2♥. These help because now you can bid hearts or spades in a forcing way. You'd think this is a common enough auction and would come up, right? Same thing with another agreement...after (1x)-Dbl-(1M)-..... 2x = inv with OM, jump-OM = 5+ less than invitational, 2M = art GF.....you'd think this would come up right?

They might come up once in a while, but they don't produce swings most of the time even when they do. An obscure agreement like the ones mentioned is definitely not worth it if common ones like these don't even help much.

[pclayton]

We can discuss this stuff, but there is limited utility.

When you play 500 sessions a year like Meckwell, then it makes sense to assign meanings to sequences like this.

I have no idea what each mean, but I would guess the 1st asks for trump for 6, and the 2nd asks for trump for 7.

But I would never spring either on my pard at the table, unless I was planning on dumping him the next week and wanted a torture session.

[SoTired]

I don't think the question is asked because "Partner bid this, what do they mean"
I think the question is asked because "What is expert opinion about how to use these two bids for our partnership agreements"

[han]

Why are you asking this question Winston, did the auction come up?

[Winstonm]

Hannie, on Feb 7 2007, 06:09 PM, said:

Why are you asking this question Winston, did the auction come up?

Kind of - it was a question about Q ask in Keycard when the response is 1 step below the suit - and my contention was that a trump ask instead of keycard was more appropriate and if keycard was needed then Texas should have been used.

And it dawned on me that there were obviously two ways to make this 5-major bid, after Jacoby and after Texas and I wondered if somewhere along the line I missed this and if there was a standard meaning assigned.

Looks like so far the answer is no.

[000002]

my cognition stagnate at this level:difference length on trump,and stiff A/K.
the first one is iff 6cards ♠,2nd is 7cards+,both with trump A or K singleness, invite slam .seems holding this generic hand:
Kxxxxx/x
Axx
Ax
Q/x
the major difference is how to distinguish and evaluate the trump[q] on the opener's hand,especially he has 2cards trump with Q,or has 3cards trump and medium. for example:
QX-----------------Axxxxx
AKxx---------------xx
AQx----------------KJ
Qxxx----------------AKx
if openner has Qxx ♠,this is good slam ; it's disaster with Qx stiff.

but i am a few self-confidence,lotting on an master to coach this puzzle.


regards 000002

[han]

Winstonm, on Feb 7 2007, 08:33 PM, said:

Hannie, on Feb 7 2007, 06:09 PM, said:

Why are you asking this question Winston, did the auction come up?

Kind of - it was a question about Q ask in Keycard when the response is 1 step below the suit - and my contention was that a trump ask instead of keycard was more appropriate and if keycard was needed then Texas should have been used.

And it dawned on me that there were obviously two ways to make this 5-major bid, after Jacoby and after Texas and I wondered if somewhere along the line I missed this and if there was a standard meaning assigned.

Looks like so far the answer is no.

My son, there is a convention that solves all of your problems. It starts with a G.

[000002]

Hannie, on Feb 8 2007, 11:33 AM, said:

My son, there is a convention that solves all of your problems. It starts with a G.

son?

it's very rude in chinese culture,i bet, MR. winston never go to china.





if anyone can explain this 5♠ raising exactly,i will abandon bridge game in my survival.

[fred]

Meckstroth-Rodwell (who I believe developed this convention) play that:

1NT 2H
2S 5x

is a RKCB (for spades) response. The expected hand is 5(332) with enough HCP that a grand slam is in the picture (though not necessary 7S).

This is very smart in my view (and in fact I use this convention with my regular partners).

Many pairs play that:

1NT 4H
4S 5x

shows a void in x and requests an RKCB response with the Ace of x being excluded (ie Exclusive RKCB).

But I have never heard of anyone having a specific agreement about what this auction means if x is spades.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[inquiry]

Winstonm, on Feb 7 2007, 08:33 PM, said:

And it dawned on me that there were obviously two ways to make this 5-major bid, after Jacoby and after Texas and I wondered if somewhere along the line I missed this and if there was a standard meaning assigned.

Looks like so far the answer is no.

Well, I am fairly certain that 1NT-5♠ should be 100% forcing and a grand slam promising enough "power" to underscore slam and if opener is on a maximum a grand slam. As I said, I can see no darn reason to invite slam at the five level when other auctions can be used to invite slam without getting beyond 4♠. Nor does 5♠ preemptive make sense if partner opens 1NT. So of this is not the "STANDARD MEANING", it really should be.

As for 1NT-4H-4S-5S, this one is hardly different from the first one. I can see two possible reasons for this auction.

Reason number one, is to place the contract in opener's hand for positional reasons and still try for grand slam. So it is the same as the first auction. But if you are trying for Grand slam, is positional values really important? I think not. The second reason looking for slam/grand slam where the only cards of any interest in openers hand despite his opening 1NT is the ACE and KING of spades. Bid 6 wih one, 7 with both. Unlikely, but I suspect one could draw up such a hand, that would have to include a void (or two).

[kenrexford]

fred, on Feb 9 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

Meckstroth-Rodwell (who I believe developed this convention) play that:

1NT 2H
2S 5x

is a RKCB (for spades) response. The expected hand is 5(332) with enough HCP that a grand slam is in the picture (though not necessary 7S).

This is very smart in my view (and in fact I use this convention with my regular partners).

Many pairs play that:

1NT 4H
4S 5x

shows a void in x and requests an RKCB response with the Ace of x being excluded (ie Exclusive RKCB).

But I have never heard of anyone having a specific agreement about what this auction means if x is spades.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

This does sound like a very sound and useful agreement.

As Texas4♥...5♠ has no pre-determined meaning (or the heart corollary), perhaps anything is possible, with the solution being simply to decide upon something.

One idea that stands out to me in any "what should this mean" question is that ideally it should solve the "most likely problem." The obvious candidate is to consider the "most difficult problem" auction, namely a one-under Exclusion RKCB auction (1NT-4♥-4♠-5♥ or 1NT-4♦-4♥-5♦). The most troubling concern here would be when Responder has a hand that merits slam after a response showing two key cards, but not opposite one key card (the response bieng too high). Or, if two keys are assured in some auction, for instance, the two without response.

The Texas-5 auction, then, could show a general slam invite that requires more than the one-above response. In normal RKCB response, this means a need for at least two keys. Opener would pass with fewer than two keys, or bid 5NT qwith two, slam with two and the trump Queen, or cue a side King with two, the trump Queen, and this cheapest side King.

Something like that.

Of course, who discusses things to this degree of depth? LOL

[Winstonm]

Quote

But I have never heard of anyone having a specific agreement about what this auction means if x is spades.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

It seems rather limited to use it as a trump ask - about the only type of hand would be something like: QJ109xx, A, Axx, Axx, saying in essence slam is pretty good bet if we are not off two trump tricks.

Perhaps it could be more useful if it asked for better trumps with a hand such as:
J109xxx, A, AKxxx, Ax?

Or it could be a precise trump asking bid with step responses.

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Feb 6 2007, 09:47 PM, said:

Simple question.  If you play Jacoby transfers and Texas transfers, is there a standard division of the meanings of these two sequences:

1N-2H
2S-5S

1N-4H
4S-5S

Simple answer=no

I would bet less than 10,000 pairs out of millions have a standard agreement so answer is NO.