[jocdelevat]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 Pass  3♥    Pass  5♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Hi all
I bid 5h here trying for slam thinking if pard is max for 3h he can bid 6h.
One of opponent said thats the strange bid ever seen and he should have call TD. I asked him after what he will bid with my hand he said 4nt to ask for aces? I thought weak 3 preempts should not have an outside ace. What you bid with my hand?


Thank you

[mike777]

Easy 4h bid for me as pard will not have outside ace or king

Still looking for partners promised 6 tricks in second seat though

[kenrexford]

It depends upon your preempting style. If red-on-red 3♥ shows an expected seven tricks, very sound style, then your four covers plus the club Queen suggest that slam might make. A tool for this is to use 4♣ after a preempt as asking for control. If he bids 4♦, you can bid 5♣. If he bids 4♠ instead, you probably have a fair shot at slam, whatever he holds.

However, it looks like partner thinks that a 5 1/2 trick hand is sufficient. In that case, 3NT seems best.

[neilkaz]

While my style of preempting at the 3 level is considerably different than mike777's since I can have ONE outside ace or king or once in a great while two outside kings, it still is quite a lot to ask for to have PD holding the spade control and to not lose two tricks outside of ♥.

Your hand is flat and you can imagine that PD has 7♥ and one trick outside and that gives you 11 tricks.

Ken's 4♣ asking for a control makes sence or you could adopt the control asking scheme from "Preeempt from A-Z" which if my slightly intoxicated memory from my family Super Bowl party is OK, is that a direct 4♠ is a CAB (control asking bid in ♠) (too play in 4♠ force with 3♠ and then bid 4♠) but even then with a ♠ control you likely need a ♣ hook unless PD has both black kings and preempted (which the way I bid is reasonable since 2nd seat preempts should be decent).

I think the percentage action is to sign off in game but it is maybe close.

Where do you find these opps that would call the director after 5♥ (which I think is either a quantative slam invite or asking for real good trumps..ie no likely ♥ loser) ?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

unless I played with a regular partner, I would never
assume specific things about a preempt opener,
like no out side Ace.
There are different styles out there, and it is always
a guess, what style your partner is playing.

The same is true for a 5H bid, it means what ever
you have agreed on, and if you have no agreement
it is a dangerous call.

Looking at the specific hand:
A red preempt should show a hand, which can produce
6-7 tricks, you have 4 sure tricks, and there are
chances for a 5th, this means your side can make
11-12 tricks. => If you play with a conservative partner
you may try for 6.
The main problem is, that you need to find out about a
spade control, and 4NT will not do the job.

If you want to try for slam, bid 4C (*) as a cue with the intention
to bid 4H over partners 4D, or 5H over partners 4H, this seq.
should tell partner, that you have a problem in spades.
... the oppoenents may also get the message.

With kind regards
Marlowe

(*) Unless you play 4C as RKCB, which makes sense, but needs
special agreements.

[mike777]

ok why not assume...assume no outside ace with a weak 3 bid..undiscussed?

I agree we are guessing with a world class partner yes?

If I am playing with a wc partner and this is undiscussed...I just bid 4h.

[the hog]

Partner could of course have an outside A or K; setting a parameter of no outside Aces or Kings is foolish as you are greatly cutting down on the number of hands on which you pre empt.
(Show me any decent player who would pass Kx QJTxxxx x xxx). If you count your tricks however, you will find that they do not add up to 12 even in the best case scenario of her having K and another S or two - now its on the C hook. You also have no ruffing values. All in all it is an easy 3NT or 4H bid.

[hotShot]

Holding ♥AK yourself, partner has to have outside values, if he did not preempt with a 3 count.
But we would need 2 Kings or singles from partner and that information can only be gained bidding slow. With the strong hand you hold, how can opps interfere ?

5♥ is not a good bid, but perfectly legal. If bad bidding or play where illegal everybody would be banned sooner or later.

[helene_t]

5♥ looks like a preempt rather than a slam try.

You could begin with 4♣ but as others have said, slam is very unlikely.

[Rant]
Opp threated to call the TD because you made a strange bid? Some people really need to learn the difference between a TD and a teacher.
[/Rant]

[Apollo81]

You had the right idea to invite to slam. The problem is that there is no practical way to do this after partner opens 3♥.

A raise to 5♥ is a continuation of the preempt, and 4NT Blackwood does not answer the "does partner have extras" question. You care about that more than you care if partner has the ♠A.

So your choices are essentially bid 4♥ or bid 6♥. If I held your hand I would normally bid 4♥, but I might bid 6♥ if I needed a swing.

Edit: OK, so if both opps have passed then there's a case for 5♥ being something other than a continuation of the preempt. Still, pard will likely take this as asking for 2/3 top trump and pass anyway, so there is little reason to make this bid.

[jtfanclub]

I think most people play it as continuing the pre-empt.

I like having it mean 'bid one more if you have a better trump suit than expected', simply because that's what it means for us in most strong auctions. Continuing the pre-empt probably makes more sense.

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on Feb 5 2007, 10:38 AM, said:

I think most people play it as continuing the pre-empt. 
<snip>
Continuing the pre-empt probably makes more sense.

Maybe, for simplicity reasons,
but in the given auction both oppoenents
passed, i.e. continuing the preempt is
pointless, ... a simple 4H will do the job,
which has the adv. that nobody except the
4H bidder, knows, if the bid was intended
to make.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Four quick points:

1. As The Hog noted, you probably don't want to go looking for slam on this hand.

2. Many people use new suits after a three level preempt as some kind of CAB. Control Asking Bids probably make more sense than trying to improve strain. If you agree with this philosophy (and you want to look for slam) you probably want to bid 3♠ as an asking bid.

3. If you want to use a jump to 5♥ as some kind of asking bid, then you need to ask a very specific question. I don't think max/min is specific enough

4. If the opponent's questioned my bidding like that, I'd call the Director myself and have him/her give a firm talk to the opponents about proprieties.

[mikeh]

Several points from the comments above:

1. I surely would not assume that a 3♥ bid denies an outside A or K. It would be rare that partner held one, but I would never rule it out, absent express agreement (and I'd never want to play such an agreement).

2. While it may be possible to play that 4♣ asks for a feature of some kind, I don't think that this treatment is at all popular. In several partnerships, we play that 4♣ over all 3 level preempts (except 3♣) is keycard, with modified responses, while other new suits are asking bids. This asking bid approach is, I believe, very popular. The response structure is up to you: we generally play OKSVA: zero, King, stiff, void, ace... but other acronymns work reasonably well

3. On the given hand, even if partner has a stiff ♠, where do you think 12 tricks are coming from? Even if he has a ♠K, by enquiring about it, you are directing a minor suit lead, which you don't want unless he has shortness in that suit.

So just bid 4♥.... or maybe 3N... which rates to make easily...I'd go with 4♥ expecting to make 5.

[kenrexford]

There is a slight chance here, if you opt for 3NT.

Partner is lacking tha A-K of hearts and yet opened 3♥. There is a fair chance that, if he holds one of the golden hands, he may not be able to stand passing 3NT. Maybe he holds something like 1-7-1-4 pattern?

If so, he MIGHT pull 3NT to 4♣, for instance. Now, a fair picture of his hand is x-QJxxxxx-x-Kxxx. On that layout, the slam makes.

Opposite x-QJxxxxx-Kxxx-x, slam is remote, so you would convert 4♦ to 4♥.

In other words, the only practical bid to "seek slam" on this layout might be to take the game option that gives room for pattern description on that rare hand where partner might actually pattern out. After 4♥, the auction ends. But, after 3NT... Might as well dream.

[mikeh]

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

There is a slight chance here, if you opt for 3NT.

Partner is lacking tha A-K of hearts and yet opened 3♥. There is a fair chance that, if he holds one of the golden hands, he may not be able to stand passing 3NT. Maybe he holds something like 1-7-1-4 pattern?

If so, he MIGHT pull 3NT to 4♣, for instance. Now, a fair picture of his hand is x-QJxxxxx-x-Kxxx. On that layout, the slam makes.

Opposite x-QJxxxxx-Kxxx-x, slam is remote, so you would convert 4♦ to 4♥.

In other words, the only practical bid to "seek slam" on this layout might be to take the game option that gives room for pattern description on that rare hand where partner might actually pattern out. After 4♥, the auction ends. But, after 3NT... Might as well dream.

If any partner of mine pulled 3N to anything, he or she would very shortly thereafter be an ex-partner of mine. The aphorism that '3N ends all auctions' may be an overbid, but not by much.... and not after 3♥ [p] 3N [p]

[cherdano]

mikeh, on Feb 5 2007, 07:31 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

There is a slight chance here, if you opt for 3NT.

Partner is lacking tha A-K of hearts and yet opened 3♥.  There is a fair chance that, if he holds one of the golden hands, he may not be able to stand passing 3NT.  Maybe he holds something like 1-7-1-4 pattern?

If so, he MIGHT pull 3NT to 4♣, for instance.  Now, a fair picture of his hand is x-QJxxxxx-x-Kxxx.  On that layout, the slam makes.

If any partner of mine pulled 3N to anything, he or she would very shortly thereafter be an ex-partner of mine. The aphorism that '3N ends all auctions' may be an overbid, but not by much.... and not after 3♥ [p] 3N [p]

I wouldn't go that far yet, before seeing his hand. I would just bid a confident 7♥, as I can't see any possible losers opposite his 0706 hand worth a preempt vulnerable in second seat.

Arend

[BebopKid]

I would not look for slam unless partner has an ace. Use 4NT and stop in 5H.

I would have just left it at 4H though. With one less spade, I might have tried.

[kenrexford]

mikeh, on Feb 5 2007, 12:31 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

There is a slight chance here, if you opt for 3NT.

Partner is lacking tha A-K of hearts and yet opened 3♥.  There is a fair chance that, if he holds one of the golden hands, he may not be able to stand passing 3NT.  Maybe he holds something like 1-7-1-4 pattern?

If so, he MIGHT pull 3NT to 4♣, for instance.  Now, a fair picture of his hand is x-QJxxxxx-x-Kxxx.  On that layout, the slam makes.

Opposite x-QJxxxxx-Kxxx-x, slam is remote, so you would convert 4♦ to 4♥.

In other words, the only practical bid to "seek slam" on this layout might be to take the game option that gives room for pattern description on that rare hand where partner might actually pattern out.  After 4♥, the auction ends.  But, after 3NT...  Might as well dream.

If any partner of mine pulled 3N to anything, he or she would very shortly thereafter be an ex-partner of mine. The aphorism that '3N ends all auctions' may be an overbid, but not by much.... and not after 3♥ [p] 3N [p]

I once thought the same thing, and got angry about it. But, then someone pointed something out to me that made a lot of sense.

If you have a hand that might be opened 3♥ or 4♥, with 7-4 pattern, is it better to open 4♥ and blast 3NT out with your first call or to bid 3♥ and then pull 3NT to 4♣? At least the latter allows better description of your hand.

This made some sense. Why not show pattern on route to the 4♥ opening that you could, or maybe should, have made?

Sure, maybe the solution is to just open 4♥ to begin with. But, 4♥ also preempts partner. 3♥ allows partner to bid 3NT, usually with heart support of some variety, or to bid 4♣ as some type of slam move, or to do something else creative.

My personal preference is to simply open 4♥, but I'm doubting my thinking somewhat. I certainly am not willing to discount this idea completely.