[del3]

Scoring: IMP

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1♦ (1♠) P (P)
Dbl (P) ?

What call if opps vulnerable? not vulnerable?

[Apollo81]

2♥ either way, seems like a no brainer

[gwnn]

Yea passing looks nice, but I'll be content with 2♥, whatever scoring or vulnerability. -160's can be unpleasant.

Basically, I can't know for sure we have most of the high card values. I suspect our spades are roughly the same strength as opps'. So logically, we cannot claim that we're entitled to 7 tricks in this partscore. This is one thing.

Secondly, it's clear that we have a heart fit of at least 8, but probably 9 cards. Also, opps are likely to hold a much better club fit (ie pd is 1453 or 0463) and in many cases where penalty would have been pleasant, opps will be able to find out cheaply about it, then maybe outbidding our subsequent 2♥ with 3♣. Why not make opps' life more difficult? LHO, who is marked with some values but elected to pass due to his possible 2 spades, will rate NOT to introduce a new suit on 3 level... RHO, who could have as many as 16 points, will think twice about describing himself further if he has 4 clubs (but he could have 3... then bidding is over) vulnerable, all by himself.

Thirdly, we might miss game if 1♠X will be the final contract... 4♥ is totally reasonable opposite, say,

x
AKxx
AQJxx
xxx

And this hand is far from improbable... In spades we take 7 tricks tops.

So 2♥ it is from me, for the three reasons above.

[jtfanclub]

del3, on Feb 4 2007, 06:16 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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1♦ (1♠) P (P)
Dbl (P) ?

What call if opps vulnerable? not vulnerable?

Do you really think if you pass, it will be passed out?

You can say 2♥ now, or 3♥ over whichever three of a minor they run to...and while we might have game, they might have a great sacrifice over a game that they'll never find unless we force them to find their minor suit fit.

I'll go so far as to say that I'd be disappointed if my partner converted that X.
Now I'll find out that Fred says all the experts pass that

[the hog]

2H for a number of reasons.
Your S are not good enough to pass.
If you pass, the opps pull and you then bid 2H, this is FORCING - and don't tell me it isn't please! Your hand is not good enough to force.

[whereagles]

Agree with 2♥. Pass gambles on pard having considerable extras.

[Edmunte1]

2♥ is the normal choice. I prefer playing in a 9 card fit instead of a 6-7 card one, tghough here (in ♠) i have the advantage of being on lead.

[mikeh]

Pass is silly.

Your trump are not good enough for you to lead them yourself, without costing a trick (or two) and you lack the entries to pull trump even if they were stronger. Thus opener is going to score some of his little trump along with the AK. And his side has SOME side stuff as well... after all, you are not looking at very much, are you?

Put another way: if I was given the choice between 4♥ and pass, I'd choose 4♥!

Not that I would bid 4♥ on this hand (I will bid it at the speed of light if partner invites) but that shows, I hope, the degree to which I see this hand as offensive rather than defensive...at this level, anyway.

So make the pedestrian 2♥ bid and save the heriocs for another day.

BTW, if they are vulnerable, all that does is make the overtricks worth 200 each.

[pclayton]

mikeh, on Feb 5 2007, 09:10 AM, said:

Pass is silly.

Your trump are not good enough for you to lead them yourself, without costing a trick (or two) and you lack the entries to pull trump even if they were stronger. Thus opener is going to score some of his little trump along with the AK. And his side has SOME side stuff as well... after all, you are not looking at very much, are you?

Put another way: if I was given the choice between 4♥ and pass, I'd choose 4♥!

Not that I would bid 4♥ on this hand (I will bid it at the speed of light if partner invites) but that shows, I hope, the degree to which I see this hand as offensive rather than defensive...at this level, anyway.

So make the pedestrian 2♥ bid and save the heriocs for another day.

BTW, if they are vulnerable, all that does is make the overtricks worth 200 each.

I don't think pass is really that silly. Sure, we have an 8 or 9 card heart fit, but partner usually has a great hand on this auction, since our RHO just overcalled and LHO passed.

I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if pard had at least a 17 or 18 count here. Add this to the misfit nature of the deal, and +200 / +500 looks very possible. As a matter of fact if the opponents were vul and it was BAM (or MP's and I really needed a swing), I think pass is an intelligent gamble. Add this to the fact that many one level overcalls are made on a wing and a prayer and a pass becomes more attractive.

If I'm playing my usual down-the-middle, I'm a 2♥ bidder. The bidding is far from over, and 2♥ might attract a balance from RHO. If I later double 2♠, I make an excellent characterization of this hand.

[mikeh]

pclayton, on Feb 5 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

I don't think pass is really that silly. Sure, we have an 8 or 9 card heart fit, but partner usually has a great hand on this auction, since our RHO just overcalled and LHO passed.

I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if pard had at least a 17 or 18 count here. Add this to the misfit nature of the deal, and +200 / +500 looks very possible. As a matter of fact if the opponents were vul and it was BAM (or MP's and I really needed a swing), I think pass is an intelligent gamble. Add this to the fact that many one level overcalls are made on a wing and a prayer and a pass becomes more attractive.

If I'm playing my usual down-the-middle, I'm a 2♥ bidder. The bidding is far from over, and 2♥ might attract a balance from RHO. If I later double 2♠, I make an excellent characterization of this hand.

While 'silly' may be an overbid, the rest of your post is simply illogical.

Yes, opener may have a great hand. But we all reopen on 1=4=4=4 13 counts. And we (or most of us) routinely overcall 1♠ on 'great' hands with 5♠s and short ♥s.

Would it surprise anyone to find RHO with AKxxx x AQx Axxx for example? With opener holding x AKJx KJxx Jxxx? And dummy with xx Qxx xxxx Kxxx? Would the auction be the least bit different than the one under consideration? Try beating 1♠ with this layout.

I am NOT saying that RHO is favoured to have that kind of hand, but OTOH, there is nothing about the given auction that says that partner's hand is bigger than overcallers... the days when good players denied a strong hand by overcalling 1♠ are long, long gone.

And I do think that it is close to 'silly' to roll the dice by leaving in a takeout double when it is clear that we have a good contract available to us (it is tough to construct a hand on which 2♥ is wrong) and far from clear that we have a plus on defence.

[hrothgar]

Mark me down in the 2♥ camp

I'm not so much worried about my Spades - this looks to be enough trump length/strength to set Spade contract - however, my Heart length gives me very real concern. We look to have a nine card heart fit. Partner is going to have a lot of defensive strength wasted in a suit where the opponents are short.

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Feb 5 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

Add this to the misfit nature of the deal, and +200 / +500 looks very possible.

♠ QJT6x
♥ xxxxx
♦ Tx
♣ x

1♦ (1♠) P (P)
Dbl (P) ?


What makes you think this is a misfit deal? Sounds like we have a 9 card fit in hearts, and they have at least an 8 card club fit. If the hand was....

♠QJT6x
♥ Txx
♦ x
♣ xxxx

I'd be more sympathetic to a pass...now it does look like a misfit hand.

[BebopKid]

2♥ Your partner asked you a question for a reason, answer it.

[pclayton]

mikeh, on Feb 5 2007, 11:45 AM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 5 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

I don't think pass is really that silly. Sure, we have an 8 or 9 card heart fit, but partner usually has a great hand on this auction, since our RHO just overcalled and LHO passed.

I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if pard had at least a 17 or 18 count here. Add this to the misfit nature of the deal, and +200 / +500 looks very possible. As a matter of fact if the opponents were vul and it was BAM (or MP's and I really needed a swing), I think pass is an intelligent gamble. Add this to the fact that many one level overcalls are made on a wing and a prayer and a pass becomes more attractive.

If I'm playing my usual down-the-middle, I'm a 2♥ bidder. The bidding is far from over, and 2♥ might attract a balance from RHO. If I later double 2♠, I make an excellent characterization of this hand.

While 'silly' may be an overbid, the rest of your post is simply illogical.

Yes, opener may have a great hand. But we all reopen on 1=4=4=4 13 counts. And we (or most of us) routinely overcall 1♠ on 'great' hands with 5♠s and short ♥s.

Would it surprise anyone to find RHO with AKxxx x AQx Axxx for example? With opener holding x AKJx KJxx Jxxx? And dummy with xx Qxx xxxx Kxxx? Would the auction be the least bit different than the one under consideration? Try beating 1♠ with this layout.

I am NOT saying that RHO is favoured to have that kind of hand, but OTOH, there is nothing about the given auction that says that partner's hand is bigger than overcallers... the days when good players denied a strong hand by overcalling 1♠ are long, long gone.

And I do think that it is close to 'silly' to roll the dice by leaving in a takeout double when it is clear that we have a good contract available to us (it is tough to construct a hand on which 2♥ is wrong) and far from clear that we have a plus on defence.

Sure, RHO could have a 5=1=4=3 17 count; maybe a little more. RHO could also hold a moderate 8 count, and LHO a misfitting 7 with a 1444.

Pard could also have a monster 22 count that has the wrong shape for opening 2♣, with a 1=3=5=4 for instance. Using outlier hands to prove a point achieves nothing.

I think if you ran a sim, pard's hand rates to be bigger that RHO's just on the virtue of the respective ranges; RHO is 6-17; pard is 12-23 or so. RHO could have a better hand than pard, but rates not to, on average. LHO is an unknown entity, but would presumably find some call with at least a 9 or 10 I think.

Mind you, I'm a 2♥ bidder as well, and I think its the soundest action, but I wouldn't be surprised if pass worked out well on a given day.

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on Feb 5 2007, 12:01 PM, said:

pclayton, on Feb 5 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

Add this to the misfit nature of the deal, and +200 / +500 looks very possible.

♠ QJT6x
♥ xxxxx
♦ Tx
♣ x

1♦ (1♠) P (P)
Dbl (P) ?


What makes you think this is a misfit deal? Sounds like we have a 9 card fit in hearts, and they have at least an 8 card club fit. If the hand was....

♠QJT6x
♥ Txx
♦ x
♣ xxxx

I'd be more sympathetic to a pass...now it does look like a misfit hand.

We have at most a 9 card fit in hearts. Pard's distributions can be: 1=4=4=4, 1=4=5=3, 1=3=5=4, 2=3=4=4, 2=3=5=3, 0=3=5=5, 0=3=6=4, 0=4=5=4, etc..

The opponents have a 6 to 8 card fit in spades. The total tricks on this hand is pretty limited, and my intermediate spade honors knock the TT down a little too.