[ulven]

What is the common view on the following situation? Say for example the bidding goes like this:

1C - (X) - XX - (1H);
2C - (p) - 3C - (p);
3D - (p) - 3H or 3S

Would 3H ask for stopper in H and 3S show stopper and imply semi-stopper in H (because the "full" stopper ask was by-passed)?

OR

Would 3H show semi-stopper and ask for help and 3S deny anything in H and only solicit 3NT with full stopper?

OR

Is it auction-specific? I.e. we belong in one group in this example, but we can construct another auction where we believe the other approach should be used.

We got this wrong in a new partnership (different auction; system specific) as our view differed. Our auction:
1S - 2C
2NT - 3C
3D - 3S
3NT

1S 11-14 5+
2C natural (almost FG)
2NT max (FG) 6+sp (may bid 3S also)

I figured 3S denied anything in H and 3NT now was something like Ax, while partner had Qx and figured I had help since no 3H call. The diffence here being that partner already implied honor in H by choosing 2NT instead of 2/3S.

Any views on this subject?

[whereagles]

There are several schools of thought on this issues, but I belive the most common approach is:

3♦ by opener = accepts game invite, has diamond stop and is worried about one of the majors

3♥ by responder = asks for a stopper in hearts, probably no stopper in spades either

3♠ by responder = stopper in spades, asks for stopper in hearts

If, after 3♥/3♠ opener bids 3NT and responder pulls to 4♣, it's a slam try with control in ♥/♠ respectively.

[ulven]

Yes, I think that's the most common approach as well when opps has shown no suits or two suits.

But, when the opps has shown one suit, as in my example, then I'm more trying to identify a combined stopper in enemy suit than worrying about the other two suits.

So, my question was aimed at this specific goal. How to solve this without the luxury of an enemy-X of a cue?

[mike777]

Stoppers, who needs stinking stoppers!


Just bid game.

[000002]

which suit i bid , i show NO stopper on that.

1C - (X) - XX - (1H);
2C - (p) - 3C - (p);
3D - (p) - 3H or 3S

3H --- no stopper on ♥
3S---- no stopper on ♠


regards 000002

[dake50]

Stinking stoppers! Take the stopper asking/showing bids out, now that bid is slam specific.
And just bid game steals as often as fails to find stopper perfecto.

[ulven]

dake50, on Jan 14 2007, 12:12 PM, said:

Stinking stoppers! Take the stopper asking/showing bids out, now that bid is slam specific.
And just bid game steals as often as fails to find stopper perfecto.

You believe you have a great chance of stealing a game when the opponents has overcalled a suit or bid one after a T/O X by just ignoring the interference and bid 3NT regardless of holding in enemy suit? Maybe you're right. Maybe you and your friend with similar view(s) are in the wrong forum?

My guess is that you just enjoy provoking people. The alternative is so much less flatterning...

[Apollo81]

If I was playing with a random expert, I would take both 3♥ and 3♠ as stopper showing. Even though they've only "bid" hearts, both of these suits are in play.

[FrancesHinden]

I find it hard to comment on your sample auctions, because the second is fairly partnership-agreement specific (e.g. the choice of 2NT or 3S) and the first is really strange unless you have some other unusual agreements (2C is normal played as weak, non-forcing; 3C was non-forcing; I agree it's possible opener now decides to bid on but 3NT seems a pretty unlikely target if responder couldn't just bid it over 2C).

In general, I'm not sure I can say for certain what a 'standard' approach is. My agreements are:

- If there are two or more 'open' suits (either because the opponents have bid two suits, or because we have only bid 1 or 2 suits naturally) then bids are "natural" showing length/honours in the suit bid.

- If there is only one vulnerable suit (because the opponents have only bid one suit, or it's because it's our 4th suit) then a bid of that suit is asking. Asking, receiving an uncertain response and then bidding NT anyway shows doubt.

In some auctions you have the luxury of checking for 1/2 stops and/or getting things the right way up e.g.

1C (1H) 1S P
2C P 2H P
2S P 3H P
3NT

opener may have something like Jxx or Qxx hearts here.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 15 2007, 11:04 AM, said:

I find it hard to comment on your sample auctions, because the second is fairly partnership-agreement specific (e.g. the choice of 2NT or 3S) and the first is really strange unless you have some other unusual agreements (2C is normal played as weak, non-forcing; 3C was non-forcing; I agree it's possible opener now decides to bid on but 3NT seems a pretty unlikely target if responder couldn't just bid it over 2C).

In general, I'm not sure I can say for certain what a 'standard' approach is. My agreements are:

- If there are two or more 'open' suits (either because the opponents have bid two suits, or because we have only bid 1 or 2 suits naturally) then bids are "natural" showing length/honours in the suit bid.

- If there is only one vulnerable suit (because the opponents have only bid one suit, or it's because it's our 4th suit) then a bid of that suit is asking. Asking, receiving an uncertain response and then bidding NT anyway shows doubt.

In some auctions you have the luxury of checking for 1/2 stops and/or getting things the right way up e.g.

1C (1H) 1S P
2C P 2H P
2S P 3H P
3NT

opener may have something like Jxx or Qxx hearts here.

Agree with all of this

[FrancesHinden]

ulven, on Jan 14 2007, 02:26 PM, said:

Yes, I think that's the most common approach as well when opps has shown no suits or two suits.

But, when the opps has shown one suit, as in my example, then I'm more trying to identify a combined stopper in enemy suit than worrying about the other two suits.

So, my question was aimed at this specific goal. How to solve this without the luxury of an enemy-X of a cue?

I don't think your example is a good one, because there is no strong reason to expect the opponents to lead hearts rather than another suit - the 1H bid was made under duress. If we are certain about the suit we are trying to staunch, the general approach is:

- Bids of other suits are 'natural'
- A cue bid asks for a stop. It may have half a stop, in which case it will bid 3NT next round.
- If there is room, a raise of a cue bid suggests playing it the other way up (in the same way a redouble of a double suggests a stop that can cope with appearing in dummy).

So, say,

1C (1S) x (P)
2C (P) 2S (P)
3D (P) ?

3D = I have length/values in diamonds, don't want to bid NT
3H = I have no idea where we're going but I like my hearts
3S = I could really do with a spade stop, can you offer a contribution towards one
3NT = I wasn't confident 3NT is the right spot, but I do have the suit stopped: you can pull this if you have an unusual hand (a 1246 with low singleton spade, say, would be sufficiently unusual if it had enough high cards to think 5m could be right; a spade void would pretty much always pull unless confident the clubs were running)

while

1C (1S) x (P)
2C (P) 3NT

would almost never be pulled by opener. Responder is confident.

or

1C (1S) x (P)
2C (P) 2S (P)
3S

3S = I have a good hand, but I don't want to bid 3NT myself or bid any other suit.

[pbleighton]

"Stoppers, who needs stinking stoppers!


Just bid game."

What he said.

Peter

[pclayton]

In the example auction, 3♥ / 3♠ show stoppers (and deny full stops in the other major).

If Opener bids 3♠ over 3♥ it should show a partial, and responder's 3N also shows a partial spade stop.

I don't know how to get to 3N with two partial heart stops.

[cherdano]

pclayton, on Jan 15 2007, 07:03 PM, said:

I don't know how to get to 3N with two partial heart stops.

Just bid it over 3S with a partial stopper

[pclayton]

cherdano, on Jan 15 2007, 09:07 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jan 15 2007, 07:03 PM, said:

I don't know how to get to 3N with two partial heart stops.

Just bid it over 3S with a partial stopper

LOL; better to go back to the 3N bash then, since we've pinpointed the lead.

[Winstonm]

I'm less concerned about the stoppers than I am about having the 8 running tricks after the stopper has been knocked out.