[lenze]

As South, at MPS, you hold

S – Q
H – AT4
D – AKQT9
C – J985

Partner deals, all VUL and opens 4S
RHO Passes
Your thoughts??

After hearing some of yours, I will share mine.

lenze

[bglover]

Partner should have a very good hand... Your queen is a golden card... I would probably shoot 6 and pray we dont have 2 fast club losers.

This brings up an interesting point regarding vul vs. nonvul 4 level preempts. Some (me included) play that a vul 4 level major preempt is a very good hand and that a 4 level nonvul could be any 8 card suit and hand quality isn't much of an issue otherwise.

If partner doesn't open sound 4 level preempts vul then you are in a pickle. If you played with me you could shoot 6 without much fear of going for a number.

[inquiry]

I am willing to think that my trump support is more than adequate for a vulnerable 4S preempt. The one thing partner will not have is really good spades (needed for 4S) and a side ACE or KING (then open 1S). Further, I am willing to believe that we will have a play for 6S IF partner has a singleton or void in clubs. However, I am not willing to blindly blast to 6S.

However you play, after a vulnerable four level preempt, your partner's suit will be the trump suit. So you can freely bid 5D (pointing out the need for a club control). Partner can bid the slam with a club control, and with a club void (we should be so lucky), he can bid 6C. Without a club control, he should return to 5S.

So if I was feeling lucky, I would bid, in fact, 5D. I might catch partner with ...

S-AKJxxxx H-xx D-Jxx C-x, or
S-AKJxxxx H-xxx D-xx C-x where you will need the diamond hook or 3-3 diamonds for six, or with

S-AKJxxxx H-xx D-xxxx C-void, where you get to play 7S after partner bids 6C over 5D.

On the downside, if you move over 4S, you may get too high. First, anytime partner has two or three small clubs, you are at risk, and if you catch him with....three small clubs and a diamond void, ouch, they can take 3 clubs off the top.

So you are driven by greed. I guess becasue I have the Diamond TEN, I would bid 5D, that gives me a reasonable chance on anyhand that partner has a singleton club for slam, or for grand slam if he has a void.

Finally, can partner be eight spades to KJT for this 4S bid with a singleton club??? Let's not go there... (I think he is more likely to have AK-eight for 4S than KJT eight, as that is 3S bid (only 6 tricks).

Ben

[Bolovanu]

Over 4-level opening bid,(even over 3) we play that suit.

A little gadget i use to play if slam view: a 5 level suit over a 4 opening ask partener for control in suit bidded:

1st step: no control
2nd step: round 2 control (k or singleton)
3rd step : round 1 control (A)
4th step: round 0 control (void)

so I bid 5Cl asking for Clubs health.

if level 1 goto 5Sp :-X
else if level 2 goto 6sp
else if level 3 or level 4 goto 7sp. :-* or 7nt (MP)

[bglover]

Both Inquiry and Bolo make great points but... If you just shoot six you will make a SIGNIFICANT amount of the time because the opponents are in the dark as to which suit is best to lead.

Sure, some of the time opening leader is holding the AK of clubs and you are going to be down but if his holding is Kx or Kxx he is likely to lead some other suit and if he does you will pretty much always make 6 or 7 on this hand.

I am defintely known as agressive so take what I say with that in mind. But I guess you will make 6 at least 60% of the time by just jumping there directly... I would be willing to risk it with your hand. (And with your club holding and only 5 unknown cards in partner's hand you aren't going to have 2 fast club losers that often anyway).

OTOH, bidding it my way will also prevent you from finding a makeable grand. This is the downside to my method and should not be ignored... Depends on your style I guess.

[inquiry]

Quote

Both Inquiry and Bolo make great points but... If you just shoot six you will make a SIGNIFICANT amount of the time because the opponents are in the dark as to which suit is best to lead.

Making a significant amount of time when off the club ACE-KING is not necessarily true. Leader may have club AK, or KQ and club lead is "natural". Second, even if you escape a club lead, you may have not way to make. Give your partner a nice hand like...

S-AKJT9XX
H-xx
D-void
C-xxxx

for instance. you have 7S,3D and 1H. Or give him same hand iwth a diamond more and club less. now you have to decide how to play the diamond suit after a red suit lead (assuming you escape the club lead). Finally, as I worry, partner may have something like.

KJT9xxxx
Qx
x
xx

If you escape the club lead, you still have two aces to lose. You might make (7S, 4D, 1H) on a good day.

Somehow I try not rely on the kindness of other or blind luck. A well thoughtout bid to force partner to tell me what I want to know seems best to me.

Ben

[lenze]

Hi all: Thanks for the replies.

Bolovanu: Welcome to the forum. You are correct in that asking bids can be very useful in situations like this. They are not, however, a part of most partnerships.

As to 2over1’s leap to 6 spades, it certainly has merit, as it does force a guess on the defenders. As he points out, it does, however, give up on finding a lay-down grand.

My own approach would be similar to Ben’s, with a few modifications. The premises are this:

1)   When partner opens 4 of a major VUL, that is the trump suit.
2)   There is no hand I can hold and be interested in slam without 1st round control in TWO of the three side suits.
3)   Therefore, if I cue bid, I am looking for a control in one of the side suits, and I need to focus partner’s attention to that suit.
4)   In the example hand, Ben’s 5D call effectively focuses on the club suit. But, exchange the hearts and clubs, and a cue bid of either minor does not necessarily focus on hearts.

My solution is to ALWAYS CUEBID THE SUIT BELOW THE ONE I NEED HELP IN. On this hand, I would cue bid 5H, the suit below clubs(excluding spades). If my clubs and hearts were reversed, I would cue bid 5D, focusing on hearts.

Just some random thoughts. I could be wrong.

FYI: I held the north hand

S – AKJT987
H – 2
D – 54
C – QT6

Also note that the actual south hand did not hold the spade Q, but the 5 instead, yet still "raised" to 6S. When I posted this as a bidding problem, I changed it to the Queen to make it more tempting for South to act over 4S

I did make a very aggressive VUL preempt, and I do not fault partner for leaping to 6S (Like 2over1). Also, you know it is your LUCKY day when East leads the Club Ace and West plays the Club King. East continues with a small club and West plays the Club 2!!!!!!!. (I swear that’s the truth) You win, cross to dummy in hearts and finesse the spade Jack, winning. With spades 3-2 you claim six. Isn’t this an easy game.

PS: West had his Spade Q in with his clubs and thought he was making a GOOD signal!!(LOL)

[bglover]

Well.. only one comment here... That hand is an average to average plus vul 3 level preempt...

I would never open that 4 vully but thats me. Remember my initial post on saying my vul preempts are done with very good hands with 8 card suits. Given that you would open that hand 4 I would substantially change my answer, as that hand (or close to it) is what I preempt 3 on vul.

So, my answer actually has no bearing now, as I need a significantly better hand to open 4 than this one I (another ace on the outside if it's only a 7 bagger as here).

[mishovnbg]

Hi all!
Only way to menage conditions for slams - controls and KC is 4NT as even KC cue bid. Your partner can have enough long SP suit to open 4 with KJ10.
I will bid 4NT as even KC and expect partner to continue cue bids if KC are enough. In case of real deal my partner must bid 5HE:cue, KC enough for slam, no control in CL or DI and I will sign off on 5SP. With 1 KC my partner will not cue bid due to lack of KC for slam and opponents will receive less information - better if some way to go down at 5 level exists.
Misho

[mjmassi]

I agree with 5C asking. It makes sense to play a new suit as asking for a control in this auction.

I don't like shooting out 6S. A good defender will lead the club A if he has it on this auction, or from KQ, and much of the time from other club holdings including the K.

Mike M.

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

Partner should have a very good hand... Your queen is a golden card... I would probably shoot 6 and pray we dont have 2 fast club losers.

This brings up an interesting point regarding vul vs. nonvul 4 level preempts. Some (me included) play that a vul 4 level major preempt is a very good hand and that a 4 level nonvul could be any 8 card suit and hand quality isn't much of an issue otherwise.

If partner doesn't open sound 4 level preempts vul then you are in a pickle. If you played with me you could shoot 6 without much fear of going for a number.

I tend to agree, but there is also a nice convention like Namyats, to distinct between good and not so good preempts. But as I do with a lot of new pd's without having a whole system in place. I just bid like I play rubber bridge and bid 6 SP. It sure shud have a play and they have to lead Clubs first

Mike ;D