[Gerben42]

Yesterday I played online using my usual system (Fantoni-Nunes style). Just wondering how the Italians would have bid this hand:

Scoring: IMP

---

Given that 1♠ is supposed to be about a Queen more than a normal opening bid and 2♠ is an intermediate opening bid, North chose to pass out of fear of being passed out in 2♠ with 4♥ cold (as here). This didn't help much when it then went:

P P 2♦ P
2♠ P P P

This lead to the same result... Just "bad hand for the system" or would you still open 1♠ even though partner expects much more in terms of high cards?

[EricK]

What is the strength of a 2♦ opening in 3rd seat?

If it is still 9-13ish then can't you use a jump to 3NT to show this sort of hand, as the lack of opening bid makes a natural 3NT repsonse impossible?

[Gerben42]

Quote

What is the strength of a 2♦ opening in 3rd seat?

It's wide range starting at 6 HCP or so, i.e. it include W2 type hands. I've been pondering about using "the other minor" as a response showing 5+5+ majors in a passed hand situation, i.e.

Pass - 2♦ - 3♣ and Pass - 2♣ - 3♦ are not really needed as natural and NF so could be this hand type. Of course Pass - 2m - 2M is needed as natural since if you have a W2 type hand you want to play there and not in pds 5-card minor...

[Echognome]

Ironically I wouldn't have reached 4♥ in my system despite opening 1♥ (we open 55 or better major hands 1♥ systemically). I asked a regular partner how we would bid it and it would go:

1♥ - 2♠ (unknown mini-splinter)
2N (asking) - 3♣ (short spades)
3♥ - pass

I think it's tough to reach 4♥ on these hands, although I guess in standard south will bid a forcing NT (or 2♦) after North opens 1♠ and then raise 2♥ to 3. Then it's up to North to take the push.

[Free]

Fantunes use 2♦-3♣ as invite with 5♠-4♥. I prefer that bid...

I would also open 2♠ in 1st seat since I expect a competitive auction, and I'll be able to tell my hand pretty well...

[Gerben42]

Quote

I would also open 2♠ in 1st seat since I expect a competitive auction

You wouldn't have gotten it.

Quote

Fantunes use 2♦-3♣ as invite with 5♠-4♥. I prefer that bid...

Invite in a passed-hand situation? I'm not talking about responses with an unpassed hand.

[Free]

I suspect they change their system for passed hands, but there's nothing on their CC (perhaps on their latest) that confirms they change their methods with a passed partner (except the 6-13 instead of 10-13).

[inquiry]

Gerben42, on Dec 29 2006, 03:36 AM, said:

Yesterday I played online using my usual system (Fantoni-Nunes style). Just wondering how the Italians would have bid this hand:

Scoring: IMP

---

Given that 1♠ is supposed to be about a Queen more than a normal opening bid and 2♠ is an intermediate opening bid, North chose to pass out of fear of being passed out in 2♠ with 4♥ cold (as here). This didn't help much when it then went:

P P 2♦ P
2♠ P P P

This lead to the same result... Just "bad hand for the system" or would you still open 1♠ even though partner expects much more in terms of high cards?

Maybe they would use ZAR points. Need 25 to open when holding 4 or more spades... so a "queen" more would be 27 (ok, ok, lets say 28).

This hand has 9 hcp, 3 control points, 19 distributional points. That is 31 ZARS. that is much more than a queen more than opening stregnth. That is a queen, jack and king more than opening stregnth by ZAR point standards. Of course, I don't know fantunes, maybe they are not so much into ZAR type distributional evaluation. I will take a look at some of the many recent hands in BridgeBrowser to see if they open at the one level "light" with great distribution later....

[awm]

Wasn't there some recent shift to opening 1M with 5-4 majors hands in the minimum opening range? I suspect that this hand might be a 1♠ bid for them now.

[Gerben42]

Yes their minimum 1M opener is lower if they have both majors, but I don't think it is as low as this hand. Would be interesting to see though if they bid 1♠ 2♠ or Pass on these kinds of hands.

[inquiry]

Echognome, on Dec 29 2006, 04:05 AM, said:

I think it's tough to reach 4♥ on these hands, although I guess in standard south will bid a forcing NT (or 2♦) after North opens 1♠ and then raise 2♥ to 3. Then it's up to North to take the push.

Seems automatic to me...

1S - 1NT (forcing)
2H - 4H
Pass

The 4H bid is based on fact that
1) spade queen is fully worth its 2 points after partner opens 1S
2) Responder has 30 ZAR points in support of hearts. He only needs 25 or 26 to bid the game.

[awm]

Is this no longer an opening bid in Ben's methods?

AKxxx
Qxxx
Kx
xx

It seems like 12 hcp + 4 ctrls + 9 (long+2nd) + 3 (long-short) = 28 ZAR to me. Curiously this is the same as:

AKxxxx
Qxxxx
-
xx

Which seems like 9 hcp + 3 ctrls + 11 (long + 2nd) + 5 (long-short) = 28 ZAR also.

So presumably both these hands open 1♠ and rebid 2♥ after a 1NT (forcing) response. But opposite the example hand:

Q
KTxx
JTxxx
Axx

The first hand has very little play for 4♥. There's a pretty sure loser in clubs, diamonds, and hearts... to make 4♥ one needs to get a diamond finesse right, and also find a favorable heart position (which is less than 50% since virtually any 4-1 break is problematic). Even then a 5-2 spade break will cause some issues. This is probably something like a 10% game (diamond finesse on and heart finesse on and hearts 3-2 and spades 4-3).

Of course, ZAR points will re-evaluate so that after you know about the heart fit, it becomes clear that the second opening hand is now a lot better than the first. But if responder's going to blast game this re-evaluation never comes into play and you're in 4♥ opposite either opening bid.

Anyways, asking Ben "how to get to game" on a pair of hands is almost a frivolous exercise. I'd bet he almost never misses a game, certainly not with opponents passing. The more interesting issue is how often he stays out of bad games....

I think after a 1♠ opening a normal 2/1 auction would be 1♠-1NT-2♥-3♥-4♥, noting that the second (actual) opener hand looks pretty good once you know about the nine-card heart fit (in fact game has a bit of play opposite xx Kxxx xxxx xxx which is way less than responder's 3♥ bid promises).

[mikeh]

It wouldn't surprise me to see this hand passed out at many tables. South has nothing close to an opening, and opening a weak two on this hand strikes me as weird... I don't care that it 'fits' the point count for the bid, or that it is based on a 5 card suit, but the high card distribution is such that 2♦ wouldn't have occurred to me. If the method permitted, and I HAD to bid, I'd open 1♥, but I suspect that was not an option at the table...but that scarcely justifies 2♦ for me.

The problem lies, if there is one, in a method that requires North to pass as dealer. It just goes to show that every method has problems with some layouts. Trying to cater to everything leads to chaos, so unless you are prepared to significantly alter your 1st/2nd seat 1-level philosophy, maybe you just have to chalk this up to a 'system fix' and hope that the opps will save you by opening in 4th seat. They do have more hcp than you do, you know

[inquiry]

awm, on Dec 29 2006, 02:36 PM, said:

Is this no longer an opening bid in Ben's methods?

AKxxx
Qxxx
Kx
xx

It seems like 12 hcp + 4 ctrls + 9 (long+2nd) + 3 (long-short) = 28 ZAR to me. Curiously this is the same as:

AKxxxx
Qxxxx
-
xx

Which seems like 9 hcp + 3 ctrls + 11 (long + 2nd) + 5 (long-short) = 28 ZAR also.

So presumably both these hands open 1♠ and rebid 2♥ after a 1NT (forcing) response. But opposite the example hand:

Q
KTxx
JTxxx
Axx

The first hand has very little play for 4♥. There's a pretty sure loser in clubs, diamonds, and hearts... to make 4♥ one needs to get a diamond finesse right, and also find a favorable heart position (which is less than 50% since virtually any 4-1 break is problematic). Even then a 5-2 spade break will cause some issues. This is probably something like a 10% game (diamond finesse on and heart finesse on and hearts 3-2 and spades 4-3).

Of course, ZAR points will re-evaluate so that after you know about the heart fit, it becomes clear that the second opening hand is now a lot better than the first. But if responder's going to blast game this re-evaluation never comes into play and you're in 4♥ opposite either opening bid.

Anyways, asking Ben "how to get to game" on a pair of hands is almost a frivolous exercise. I'd bet he almost never misses a game, certainly not with opponents passing. The more interesting issue is how often he stays out of bad games....

I think after a 1♠ opening a normal 2/1 auction would be 1♠-1NT-2♥-3♥-4♥, noting that the second (actual) opener hand looks pretty good once you know about the nine-card heart fit (in fact game has a bit of play opposite xx Kxxx xxxx xxx which is way less than responder's 3♥ bid promises).

AKxxx
Qxxx
Kx
xx

Is certainly still an opening hand..Both hands you showed had 28 ZARS (I was thinking 7-5 when I counted 19 distributional 6-5 is only 17). The 5-4 hand doesn't HAVE to bid 2♥ if you play 1NT as semi-forcing, which I do, and if your 1NT response denies three spades, which I do. But lets say I would rebid a four card heart suit to the Queen rather than pass.

Then as far as bidding game, I would bid it the same way opposite each hand. A diamond lead makes the 10% game much better than 10% -- you always get diamonds right, and provides an entry to the hand for club pitches on the spade AK. The club lead is more problematic, as you will have a sure loser in each suit other than spades.... so you have to get both diamonds and spades right (now that is at most 25%) and you can't handle some poor splits in a major, so 10% is fair. I have been in worse....as your "The more interesting issue is how often he stays out of bad games.... " implies.... some with no chance what so ever... But that doesn't stop me from bidding on... when the hand has the values for it. With a heart fit, responders hand has the values to bid game. Sure some will not make.

[awm]

All I'm trying to say is that Ben plays a very aggressive method. It is hard to construct hands where game is 50% or better and he will not get to game in his style.

But this does not necessarily mean his style is good. The "ideal" style will not only reach all the 50% or better games, but will stay out of the 0%, 10%, 20% games. This is where I have doubts about Ben's methods.

Of course, with any methods you will occasionally reach a bad game, because there simply isn't enough space below the game level to be able to always determine whether you have a good game with any accuracy. In addition, even looking at both hands it can be hard for a human to compute how good a game is in reasonable time. So this all comes with no surprise. With any "aggressive" method, you expect to reach more good games than most people, with the price being that you will also reach more bad games than most people. The real test of a method is not "how often do you get to game" but "how accurate is it" and this is where I remain unconvinced of Ben's ZAR methodology.

The north hand in this example is the type of hand that occasionally comes up where you can take a lot of tricks opposite a good fit even if partner has little in the way of values, and you can be pretty stuck opposite a poorly-fitting hand even when partner has some cards. For example:

xx
KJxx
xxxx
xxx

x
xx
AKJxxx
KQxx

Opposite the first hand 4♥ is pretty good. You lose two clubs and the top heart, and game is pretty likely to make any time spades are 3-2 or hearts are 2-2. Note that partner has only 4 hcp and might pass a 1♠ opening, or perhaps bid 1NT and then pass a 2♥ rebid. It's going to be real hard to get to game opposite this hand no matter what you do.

Opposite the second hand, game isn't particularly good. Even if every suit divides evenly you are likely to lose 1♠+2♥+1♣ in four spades, or 3♥+1♣ in four hearts, or a bunch of tricks in 3NT with your entries all fouled up. Of course you might get a misdefense where opponents lead diamonds against 4♠, but even then you could wind up losing four tricks in the majors if spades break 4-2 (as is likely).

So the point is, there's no easy answer for this hand. Even opening one could miss a good game whereas opening one could easily get you to an awful game. Opening two will often miss game if it's in the second suit. Passing could miss game if partner has a balanced hand and passes your response. It's easy to say "I'd get to game via this auction" and it can be true even, but it doesn't necessarily explain how you stay out of game when partner's hand is not so favorable.

[keylime]

Playing Fantunes North technically shouldn't open. However I would regardless of system. I got too much playing strength to not try to bring back a game to my teammates (if playing teams) to pass and possibly take a position.

[inquiry]

Here is a recent hand from them on bbo...

========================================
C:\BRBR\fulvio2002.06.IMP-1158.28.txt
Produced by BRidgeBRowser on 30-Dec-06
========================================
IMP-1158    nunes2002   Dlr: West  
Board 28    S T8        Vul: N-S
                H AK8743    
irka            D QT2               shurik      
S 2            C J3               S J754      
H T6                               H J         
D K8653     fulvio2002        D AJ94      
C AKQT4     S AKQ963        C 8765      
                 H Q952      
                D 7         
                C 92        

11-Oct-06  2:04:03 AM 
First  2:04:03 AM, Last  2:30:45 AM

North      East       South      West       
irka       nunes2002  shurik     fulvio2002 
                                      1S*        
2NT        3H         5D         5H         
Pass       Pass       Pass       

 1. 14+ 5+sp or 11+ 5+sp 4+h

Opening lead: DA    Result: Down 1
Score: -50          Points: 0.00  

 1  South  DA,  7,  3,  2
 2  South  C6,  2,  Q,  3
 3  North  CK,  J,  5,  9
 4  North  DK,  T,  4

------------------------------------------
 =======================================

To find this hand, searched for nunes2002 and fulvio2002 hands played together, wiht 1S opneing bids... then plotted the hcp, and clicked on the one with 11 (the weakest i found in the current database). Another great ad for Bridgebrowser.. study the bidding of great players is soooo easy....

[Free]

Can you reverse-engineer their system?

[inquiry]

Free, on Dec 30 2006, 08:14 PM, said:

Can you reverse-engineer their system?

of course, you can use bridgebrowser "Bid analysis" to separate the hands into different auctions, and then plot their suit quality, hcp, suit legnth, for each bid....