[hrothgar]

Here's an interesting hand that cropped up during a social team match earlier today. The most striking thing about the deal is that the hand wasn't a freak. (Ridiculous number of slams in a 12 board match)

White versus Red you're dealt the following

---

You pass and partner opens 1N in third seat. Being the boring sort, you start with a Jacoby transfer, wondering what the hell you're going to do if partner rebids 2♠...

On the one hand, you have an ungly eight count. On the other, this is IMPS...
What's your plan after 2♠? Are you man or mouse? (I'm a mouse)

At the table partner conveniently rebid 3♠ showing a super-accept...
Here once again you are presented with a bidding problem.

Do you bid 4♠ or try 3NT?

[Rebound]

Here's why I like coming to the forums - because in this case, I am at a complete loss to understand the question and hopefully I'll learn something.

For the record, I'd still try inviting with this if P bids 2♠ but I can understand passing.

OTOH when I was on my Daddy's knee at the card table, I learned that opposite a 15-17 NT one may invite game with 8-9 in high cards. So this hand must be worth a game bid opposite a super-accept even if you argue that it's a lousey 8 and not worth inviting with opposite a 2♠ call. Further, you've found a 9-card fit and unless I completely misunderstand it, the purpose of a super-accept is to try to get to game in a suit on a hand that has insufficient high cards for NT. So why would you consider bidding 3NT?

[inquiry]

I would tend to bid 4♠ to avoid confusion over 3NT being serious 3NT. Generally with a balanced hand and five card major, I do suggest NT (2NTor 3NT) as appropriate.

Ok, so lets assume that 3NT would not be serious, do I bid 3NT or 4♠? It seems a toss up, I think I would try 3NT but I fully suspect partner with 4♠ to pull to 4♠s.

[flytoox]

I still bid 3N. If pd believes 4S is better, he can still bid it.

I had a similar experience a few weeks ago. Pd has 4333 and we have just 9 tricks.

[Rebound]

So the reason for bidding 3NT is to suggest the 9 trick game and bid because partner can still pull to 4♠?

Ok. I accept that. But how would partner know what to do?

[neilkaz]

Hmm..I fear that if PD passes 3NT (if not playing some sort of seriousness) one of the minor suits may set us.

I'll bid 4♠ and note that if PD has a max 4333 and wants to super accept, he can do it with 2 NT.

As for whether to invite here if PD just bid 2♠ this is very close but with a 5 card suit and an ace and 2 tens, I'll take a shot, but would never criticize a PD who passed.

.. neilkaz ..

[kenrexford]

This problem is actually rather simple to resolve with some partnership planning ahead of time. I agree with Inquiry that 3NT sounds like Serious 3NT. Beyond that. I would have an agreement with partner that it is definitely Serious 3NT.

The reason for this is the mechanism for super-acceptances. The one I prefer now, not for any specific reason other than that the most talented partner I have likes it, is for 2NT to show a super-acceptance with notrump-suitable values. Other calls show hand patterns that would decline a 3NT try. Thus, with the shown hand, I'd probably try 3NT after 2NT, but not after any other super-accept.

If the only method of super-accepting is 3♠, then Responder does have a problem. It seems that the ideal solution, then, at least for the future, is to recognize this issue and discuss more useful techniques for super-accepting a transfer.

[mike777]

Good reason to have a different ways to super accept with a useful doubleton or 4333 shape.

Without it I just bid 4S, I do have xx in D.

[Cascade]

I invite ...

1NT 2♥
2♠ 2NT

Do we know what the super-accept to 3♠ shows?

Personally I don't super-accept on NT oriented hands.

Anyway I probably still have to bid 4♠. If I try 3NT partner will never know that Hxx in diamonds is not enough if we are missing the ♠A or have some other loser before we get our nine tricks. Why give partner a choice when it is unlikely there is enough information to make the right decision.

[whereagles]

When one doesn't have elements to prefer 3NT to 4♠, one bids 4♠. This is one such case.

[Rebound]

I don't wish to seem argumentative, but that is the crux of my inquiry. My understanding is that a super-accept implies an unwillingness to play in NT by definition.

[hrothgar]

Couple quick comments here:

1. Different partnerships will have different agreements regarding the 3N bid. I'm quite sure that a number of people would treat 3NT as "serious" or alternatively frivolous. From my perspective, I felt fairly safe that 3NT would be interpreted as a natural suggestion to play, especially if made by a passed hand. Even if partner did interprete the bid as serious, we still should be able to stop in 4♠

2. The main reason that i posted the hand was to try to get a feeling whether folks felt that this hand warranted a Natural Non-Forcing 3NT bid. So far, Justin raised the most useful point when he (implicitly) differentiated between the following two hands

♠ QT872
♥ AJ6
♦ T8
♣ J74

versus

♠ QT872
♥ AJ
♦ T86
♣ J74

[Halo]

I would make a try over 2S, and no way in the world do I bid 3NT - unless it shows a bad spade suit with an ace outside, and why would it show that?

[HeartA]

hrothgar, on Dec 16 2006, 09:38 PM, said:

Do you bid 4♠ or try 3NT?

4♠, wtp?

[Apollo81]

hrothgar, on Dec 16 2006, 10:38 PM, said:

Here's an interesting hand that cropped up during a social team match earlier today. The most striking thing about the deal is that the hand wasn't a freak. (Ridiculous number of slams in a 12 board match)

White versus Red you're dealt the following

---

You pass and partner opens 1N in third seat. Being the boring sort, you start with a Jacoby transfer, wondering what the hell you're going to do if partner rebids 2♠...

On the one hand, you have an ungly eight count. On the other, this is IMPS...
What's your plan after 2♠? Are you man or mouse? (I'm a mouse)

At the table partner conveniently rebid 3♠ showing a super-accept...
Here once again you are presented with a bidding problem.

Do you bid 4♠ or try 3NT?

I'd invite 2N if no superaccept. I'd bid 3NT here.

Sreious 3NT???? Cmon....you're a PH!

[Codo]

I won´t invite after 2 ♠. Only if I have the agreement to invite light and accept heavy.

After the super accept, 3NT can never be serious, after all you are a passed hand, so which hand would you suggest to show with 3 NT? I remeber to drive two hands to slam opposite a 15-17 NT with a super accept after passing first round, but there a normal cuebid is enough.
Even for me, who loves to play serious (or frivolous) 3 NT, this is surely a choice of games. But pd does not have 4333, (he had bid 2 NT or 2 Spade with that), so I don´t want to bet that 3 NT is better, because he has the double stopper in the suit they lead and exactly nine tricks. I bid 4 Spade.

If pd may have 4333, 3 NT is a better bet, but stil not my choice.

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Dec 16 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

I would tend to bid 4♠ to avoid confusion over 3NT being serious 3NT. Generally with a balanced hand and five card major, I do suggest NT (2NTor 3NT) as appropriate.

Ok, so lets assume that 3NT would not be serious, do I bid 3NT or 4♠? It seems a toss up, I think I would try 3NT but I fully suspect partner with 4♠ to pull to 4♠s.

I'm a passed hand. How can I make a serious slam try? (or non-serious for that matter)?

4 of a new suit is a slam probe and 3N is natural.

I'm fine with using 3N as serious / non-serious if I hadn't passed.