[Chamaco]

Team match, vuln vs NOT

You are sitting S:

N E S W
1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
2C p p 2S
X p p ?

*we play 15-17 NT opening + nebulous 1D

You hold
x-QTxx-xxxxx-xxx


Some people have suggested pulling in any case. That may be reasonable but the question remains:

Without partnership agreements, what is this dbl supposed to be in "Standard precision"?
Takeout or penalty?

[the hog]

I dont think there is an agreement in standard precision. I would play this as takeout.

[Chamaco]

and what wd this auction mean in "Standard Precision" without pship agreements ?

N E S W

1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
X

a) takeout, no extra strength (may be a minimum reverse, 16-18, with S shortness)
extra strength, max reverse (19/20+)
c) any of the above
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Similarly, withgout pship agreements, what is the next dbl suupposed to be ?

N E S W

1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
X 2S p p
X


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more, same assumptions

N E S W

1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
X p p 2S
X

penalty, t/o or what?

[mishovnbg]

Hi Chamaco!
The DBL depend of meaning of previous 2CL bid. Generally easy way to play is: your bids are identical to overcalls after opps opening as distribution, but with strength of 1CL opening.
I will assume that 2CL show offensive hand and deny 4 cards in other major (HE). In same case DBL means:
max for 2CL bid, short in SP, like to bid 3CL, but allow p to pass, if he have something like QJxx in SP.
Misho

[keylime]

In Key Lime Precision, that is clearly takeout of their suit. If I got the 5-4 minor hand I should support - if I got hearts-diamonds however I'll probably bid 2NT as Scrambling denying 3 clubs (don't have hand at my disposal).

[Cascade]

Quote

and what wd this auction mean in "Standard Precision" without pship agreements ?

N E S W

1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
X

a) takeout, no extra strength (may be a minimum reverse, 16-18, with S shortness)
extra strength, max reverse (19/20+)
c) any of the above
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Similarly, withgout pship agreements, what is the next dbl suupposed to be ?

N E S W

1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
X 2S p p
X


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more, same assumptions

N E S W

1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
X p p 2S
X

penalty, t/o or what?

I would play them all as takeout Mauro.

Wayne

[Chamaco]

I would play them all as takeout Mauro.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ty Wayne.

Up to which level would you play it as t/o ? 3S ?
And what would be the motivation to select the level from which dbl becomes penalty ?

[Cascade]

Quote

Quote

One more, same assumptions

N E S W

1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
X p p 2S
X

penalty, t/o or what?

I would play them all as takeout Mauro.

Wayne

Whoops this auction is a bit weird ...

Partner has already passed 1S doubled for penalties and they are rescueing to 2S.

If this ever happened then I would play penalty doubles - I have a switch that if we ever make a penalty double or pass a takeout double for penalties then subsequent doubles are for penalties.

Wayne

[Cascade]

Quote

I would play them all as takeout Mauro.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ty Wayne.

Up to which level would you play it as t/o ? 3S ?
And what would be the motivation to select the level from which dbl becomes penalty ?

The higher the double the more often I expect partner to pass.

In a precision setting...

1C P 1D 2S
X = takeout

1C P 1D 3S
X = takeout

1C P 1D 4S
X = penalties but not a trump stack.

We would double with something like

Axx
AKx
AQxx
Kxx

but not with

KQ109
Ax
Axxx
QJx

1C P 1D 1S
X 2S P P
X = takeout

1C P 1D 1S
X 3S P P
X = takeout

1C P 1D 1S
X 4S P P
X = penalties but still not a trump stack - it is very unlikely that you will have a stack after a bid and raise unless RHO is fooling around.

Aside: Last time I psyched in this seat the 1C bidder had the perfect counter ...

1C P 1D 1S* * pscyhe
4S! P P P

General Considerations:

There is so little room after 4S to show everything that you have to make some sort of compromise. I choose to double to show likely defensive tricks but not a trump stack - convertible values. Partner is expected to pass often and cannot expect length in any other suit. I play 4NT after the double to show a hand that wants to run with any two suits.

A double of 4H is a little more takeout given the likelihood of partner running to 4S you need some length there.

Wayne

[luis]

Am I crazy or the auction is insane? Pd passed 1sx for penalties and they rescue to 2s ?
Mmmmmmmh.............

[drinbrasil]

Quote

Am I crazy or the auction is insane? Pd passed 1sx for penalties and they rescue to 2s ?
Mmmmmmmh.............

the original is
1C - 1D 1S
2C - - 2S
X
not insane, but looks take out double

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Dec 31 2003, 06:30 AM, said:

Team match, vuln vs NOT

You are sitting S:

N E S W
1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
2C p p 2S
X p p ?

*we play 15-17 NT opening + nebulous 1D

You hold
x-QTxx-xxxxx-xxx


Some people have suggested pulling in any case. That may be reasonable but the question remains:

Without partnership agreements, what is this dbl supposed to be in "Standard precision"?
Takeout or penalty?

Bid 3Clubs and be done with it. Partner had a chance to double 1S for takeout, but that doesn't turn 2Sx penalty. I have a good general rule, all doubles (unless conventional like ligthner or lead directing or support) are for takeout, regardless of the level. So here, the dbl is showing an offensive hand, short in spades. Now, your hand makes it hard to believe that partner is short in spades... you have one, and a) RHO didn't jump to 2S/3S originally and LHO didn't raise spades. Perhpas RHO frequently bids "1S" on junk, so his partner with support didn't raise with a nice little fit. I would play your partner for something like:

S-xx H-AKx D-KQT C-AKJxx

BTW, I am not even sure what standard precison is. Maybe CC Wei's version from 1969? I think you have to just decide with your partner. For instance, you might assume that after 2C-p-p... you have a "presumed" club fit, in which case double here would be optional. But even opposite an optional double, I would bid 3C with the hand you showed.

Ben

[inquiry]

Let me add the following... Let's assume the bidding went...

[QUOTE]

N E S W
1C(16+)* p 1D(0-7) 1S
2C p p 2S
P p ?

*we play 15-17 NT opening + nebulous 1D

You hold
x-QTxx-xxxxx-xxx

What do you bid if your partner's DBL over 2S would be for takeout? Now you have a choice. You can pass and let them play, or YOU could double clearly showing a club tolerance but willingness to play in a red suit (your double--see post above is takeout). With this hand, playing precison and with a 3 card club fit, I would not sell out to 2S. I guess I would double despite my 2hcp. My stiff spade is going to worth something here.

Ben