[easy]

Last weekend playing in the finals of GNT i discovered that my partnership's forcing pass agreements were'nt clear. Years ago i bought a book(pamphlet actually) called Forcing Pass written by Eddie Kantar which discussed in depth the concepts of forcing pass.

One of the most basic concepts was when partner invites to game and the invitation is accepted a forcing pass situation has been created.
Another "rule" was if the partner ship bid a vulnerable game and the opponents "saved" not vulnerable ... forcing pass is on.
And the really big" rule" of pass and pull applies.(ie) when pass is forcing and u pass pard doubles and u pull you are making a slam try.

ok now for the questions.

1. does the fact that 1 of the partners is a passed hand affect these agreements?

2. Should forcing pass exist in an auction where you r favorable pard invites to game and u accept (perhaps taking a save rather than expecting to make)?

3. What are your forcing pass agreements in your partnership and does the form of scoring impact your agreements?

4. What criteria do you use to decide whether to pass or bid on when its clear that the forcing pass is on.

[Yzerman]

This is a pretty neat topic.  Here are the criteria that I abide by.  These are all criteria for forcing auctions.

a) Whenever our side bids game to MAKE
Whenever our side has cue-bid opps suit (*)
c) Whenever our side has made a forcing reX
d) Special consideration for Jordan auctions
e) Negative inference on Good/Bad 2NT (value showing)
f) Special consideration in 2 level preempt games

* Cue bidding sequences hence become VERY important.  Sometimes people neglect to cue bid and jump directly to game.  In a competitive auction, if you hold 1 1/2 defensive tricks and have support for partner you MUST cue bid to create forcing auctions.  This is why its good to have high level conventional bids available (jump cues, double jump mixed raises, etc)

Are these auctions forcing (your side open bidding);
1C-X-XX-4H ? (My answer = No)
1C-X-2NT-4H ?  (My answer = Yes)
1H-1S-3H-3S-4H-4S ? (My answer = No)
2H-X-4H? (My answer = No)
2H-X-XX-2S-P-P-4H-4S? (My answer = Yes)
2H-X-2NT-3S-P-P-4H? (McCabe = Yes)
1C-1S-X-2S-P-P-3C? (My answer = Yes)
1C-1S-X-2S-P-P-2NT(good bad)? (My answer = No)

Opps opening bidding;
4H-X-P-4S-P-P-5H? (No)
4H-X-P-5C-P-P-5H? (No)
4H-X-P-4N-P-5C-5H? (No)
1C-X-P-2C-5C? (Yes - THIS ONE IS NEAT)
1C-X-P-2H-5C? (No)

I could go on forever, but you MUST have some mechanisms in certain types of auctions to create forces, others mechanisms for competitive, and others for cooperative.

[paulg]

Our agreements are based on the Robson & Segal ideas in their excellent book, Partnership Bidding.

1.  A natural raise to any level never sets up a forcing pass

2.  A fit jump or splinter jump only sets up a forcing pass if you are at red (vul vs non-vul) and are raising to the four level or higher

3.  A cue-bid in the opponent's suit showing a high-card raise sets up a forcing pass if you are raising to the four level

4.  A bid showing "limit or better" values (e.g. 2NT) creates a forcing pass only if opponents bid to the five level or higher

5.  Other aspects
a.      New suit in forcing pass situation is a cue-bid
b.      Pass in forcing situation then bid over double shows slam interest
c.      Pass in forcing situation then new suit is a cue-bid stronger than above

[inquiry]

My partner and I have also adopted the Robson/Segal rules for what passes are forcing. It is a good idea to have a firm agreement with your partner, as many mistakes can happen in this area.

[mishovnbg]

One of the most difficulte in competitive bidding is classification of situations. Best agreement can lead to mistakes, if it is not clear "when", and advantages of weapon like "forcing pass" will be negate. For example answer to question "1. does the fact that 1 of the partners is a passed hand affect these agreements?" will affect only this situation and not lot of same. May be better to ask "does the fact that 1 of the partners is a LIMITED hand affect these agreements?". I now working on classification and any help are welcome.
Generally i think that on question "forcing pass or not" best answer is "not", when it can be nonforcing. Like any "heavy weapon" better to use it limited. This allow p to make tactical and psychic bids.

[luis]

I use the following simple rules:

A pass is forcing if:
a)  In game forcing situations if we are not in game yet
 When we bid a vulnerable game and opps bid
c)  When a bid forced pd to bid at the 4-level
    example: 1s - p - 4c(spl) - (4d) now pass is forcing  
    because 4c forced a 4-level bid

[inquiry]

First for the beginners who might read this thread: What is a forcing pass? These are auctions where you and your partner has shown enough value and fit that on balance it must be wrong to allow your opponents to play the contract undoubled. Thus, you must outbid them or double them. So that in the non-pass out seat a pass over their bid forces your partner to do SOMETHING – double or bid on.

There are a whole lot of general rules that users can apply. This thread has listed a bunch of them. Some rules are simple, like if we have shown values to bid to the 4 level, and they bid over us, a pass is forcing. Things like that.

Some are more complicated. For instance, if you have read my favorite bidding book (Partnership Bidding at Bridge, the contested auction, by Andrew Robson and Oliver Segal) you will see that they recommend that forcing pass auctions even at the four level depend upon rather or not your SIDE is vulnerable. This emphasis on vulnerability for a pass being forcing is reflected in several post, the recent one by luis for instance.

But two important things to remember. First, forcing pass is a conventional bid that both you and your partner must understand when a pass is "forcing" or not. This requires discussion and agreement. Second, most players overuse forcing pass and end up doubling opponents too often in makable games (fear of passing an opponents say 4S contract when partner made what might be a "forcing pass" leads to a lot of 4Sx making for bad result). Enough of the high level forcing pass, what is forcing is what you agree on with your partner.

Maybe a more fun application of forcing passes occurs at the three level rather than four level. If the bidding goes,

(1D)-1H -(2D)-3C     (fit nonjump)
(3D) - P        <<----- I play that pass as "forcing"

Partner's 3C bid forced us to the 3 level in hearts already. An immediate 3H bid by opener would be a weaker bid than this pass (principle of fast arrival).  So pass here is, in effect, inviting game (or more). This may seem counter inuititive (pass when weak, bid when strong). This kind of forcing pass requires partnership agreement. But can be stated fairly easily, when we have found a fit and are forced to bid to a certain level. Pass if forcing and stronger than bidding on.

Take a similar auction

1H - (2C) - 4C - (4D)         4C = splinter
P <<------------  this is a forcing pass and is stronger than an immediate 4H bid. A 4H bid here would show no willingness to bid on.

Now to Fred's questions about Kantar's rules for forcing pass. His rules conflict with those of Robson/Segal is some places. But any rule (so you will know if your pass is forcing or not) is better than no rule, and you can and maybe should tweak any forcing pass rules to match your own personal bidding philosophy.

1) Does the fact that one hand is a passed hand affect forcing pass bidding rules?

Not really.

2) At favorable vul you bid game and they bid on, is pass forcing?

I play no.

3) What are your forcing pass agreements in your partnership and does the form of scoring impact your agreements?

Read Cardsharp post, or better yet, get your hands on a copy of Robson/Segal Competitive bidding book. I try to live by their rules for forcing pass. I use to play Kantar rules, but wacked too many making games... that everyone bid, and I was getting horrible results for making the "forced" double.  :'(  (In highnsight it was probably more my agreesive bidding on junk that got us into a situation where forcing pass was then applied rather than a fault of kantar's rules.... for my aggressive bidding style, R/S rules serve me better).

The form of scoring (imps, versus mp, vs total points) doesn't affect rather or not a pass is forcing. But does, of course, affect what you might bid (pass, double, bid on) when put into that situation. What I mean to say if they bid 4S (regardless of the type of scoring), a pass over that is either forcing (depending on the previous auction) or not.... regardless of what type game it is. If  you are playing in Baroneit's total point tournment and this is the last hand, and you have a 730 point lead and they bid a vul 4S, you know you win if they make 4S anyway, but if you double they might score enough points to win, so if you are thinking clearly you will pass... but that is stategy... the pass is still forcing in theory.

4. What criteria do you use to decide whether to pass or bid on when its clear that the forcing pass is on

My offensive and defensive values. The more offensive my hand is (a void in their suit for instance), slow tricks in my suit, fast tricks in side suits, I bid on. With slow tricks in side suits, and fast tricks in our suit, I tend to defend. I also try to figure out the total number of trumps and do a little law of total trick calculations... but this is an inexact decision method at best. Bid with double fit and "good" distribution, pass/defend with bad distribution or good defense seems a reasonable decision process. (and make a forcing pass when you have some defense and some offense, or when you want to invite bigger and better things.... think of this auction for instance with your side having a known bid spade fit....)

(5D)-P-P-X-P-5H  <<-- slam try with hearts

(5D)-5H  <<-- Slam try with hearts

One of these has to be "better" than the other. I use PFA, so the pass then pull to 5H shows a stronger slam try than an immediate 5H bid.