[Winstonm]

ArcLight, on Nov 17 2006, 12:53 PM, said:

Here was openers hand:

S: x
H:  A K 9 8 7 6
D: J 9 8 7 6
C: A

p - 1♥ - (2♣) - X
p  -2♦  - p        - 3♦
passed

result:
3♦ making 7


What I'm thinking is:

1) with that kind of ♦ support, responder needs to let opner know.  Opener can't be looking at good Diamonds and wont get excited about a raise to 3.  Responder has the A K Q x x of trumps, how can opener infer that?  There was no 2-1 auction.

2) Opener is showing at least  5-4 shape.  They bypassed NT and with 5-2-3-3 shape they would bid NT or maybe ♣.

3) a negative double shows 4+ spades.  It doesn't imply great ♦ support
Responder could be 5-1-3-4  (yes they would make the negative Dbl with that club holding).  Also, the HCP could be wsted in Spades KQxxx.  The Neg DBL didn't guarantee a huge hand in support.  5-1-4-3

4) Opener has great shape, but needed a very specific set of card from responder to make the minor suit game.  It would be very easy to visualize a spade, heart , and diamond loser in 5♦

5) What would a raise of 3♦ to 4♦ by opener mean?
"Bid 5 if you have good diamonds?"  or could it be interpreted as "Bid 5 if you have a good hand - and pard might think KQxx in Spades would be valuable, along with the KJxx in Diamonds and x in hearts.

6) Was the opening hand worth a 3♦ bid rather than 2?  Great shape, but weak suit.  3NT would have been ugly.

It is plain silly to pass 3D on those cards. It appears the problem is in evaluation of the opening hand. Once the diamond fit is uncovered, the opening hand is virtually a game force strength hand - not quite game forcing as parner could put down something like KQxx, x, Qxxx, xxxx.

Even with a vanilla auction slam should be reached.

P-P-1H-2C
X-P-2D-P
3D-P-3H-P
5D-P-6D-P
P-P

I think that 3D is plenty with responder's hand after the negative double because partner doesn't have to hold all that great of hand - with the raise, though, opener's hand becomes a monster so 3H becomes a one-round force (If opener wanted to play in hearts less than game he would not have bid diamonds).

Responder's jump to 5D denies the ability to cue bid spades or clubs and denies hearts so what is left is good trumps - all that opener needs to know.

[Cascade]

The_Hog, on Nov 18 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

I like an initial Sputnik X. I am surprised noone has commented on the pusillanimous bid of 2D by opener. Great shape an good controls would prompt me to bid 3D at least - 4 is not out of the question, but the poor Ds sway me to stick to 3.
Richard and Robert both have made good points in their posts and I agree with them. Ben, I think you overvalue the responding hand with its poor S and H void.

On this auction, for me, since the negative double did not promise diamonds a 2♦ rebid by opener is very wide-ranging - similar to 1♥ 1♠; 2♦ in an uncontested auction. A jump to 3♦ would be an absolute game-force. Therefore 2♦ is pretty much the only option for opener.

[the hog]

Wayne, I think this is too dogmatic to play D as a GF. I believe you need an invit bid. After all you do have a cue available for an absolute GF should you wish it. I do agree the cue muddies the waters, but I believe giving up an invite is too heavy a price to pay.

[Cascade]

The_Hog, on Nov 19 2006, 03:57 PM, said:

Wayne, I think this is too dogmatic to play D as a GF. I believe you need an invit bid. After all you do have a cue available for an absolute GF should you wish it. I do agree the cue muddies the waters, but I believe giving up an invite is too heavy a price to pay.

This is simply a trade-off. If a jump to 3♦ is invitational then you overload the cue-bid.

For me I am more comfortable making a natural bid as often as possible and therefore relatively rarely using the cue-bid. The cue-bid is reserved for single-suited hands without clear direction (possibly there are one or two other hand types). It is much harder to resolve the distribution in a two-suited hand after a nebulous cue-bid if 3♦ is invitational.

Like a lot of situations I think that here it is much more important to have a sensible agreement than what precisely that agreement is.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

If the 2D bids shows min. hands 'up to and including' inv. type values, aren't you overloading the much more frequent bid?

With a single suit hand 'without direction'(?), why not bid 3H(?) with inv. values and either cuebid(and later bid 4H) or bid 4H with a better hand?

How often do you hold a game force 'with the other pair making a 2/1 overcall in your auction?

The cuebid is a fairly rare bid after an enemy 2/1 overcall. Your making a simple reply to a negative double 'very wide ranging' seems to me to be creating many more problems than it might solve.

If your method works for you, enjoy. I simply do not see the advantages of overloading the much more common bid to somewhat narrow the range of a fairly rare 'jump bid.'

Should a 6-5 hand with something like 3.5-4 losers really get included in a
non-forcing 'and not even inv. bid of 2Ds?

Does your partner bid game "holding KQxx of diamonds and out" opposite your simple 2D reply? That seems to place a very great burden on your partner that requires their 'viewing' a sub minimum negative double as 'a required' invitation game bid after your very wide ranging 'non jump' 2D bid.

Regards,
Robert

[Cascade]

Robert, on Nov 20 2006, 06:52 AM, said:

Hi everyone

If the 2D bids shows min. hands 'up to and including' inv. type values, aren't you overloading the much more frequent bid?

Hmmm overloading is what makes it more frequent.

It is good on general principles to overload the cheapest bids compared with higher bids. Cheaper bids allow more flexibility in the following auction.

Bidding 2♦ here with wide-ranging hands is analogous to what everyone who plays a standard system that does not include limited openings does on similar uncontested auctions. In fact an error that I see some beginner/intermediate players make is that they jump to freely in those uncontested auctions and get stranded at the three-level with a nice 16 or so opposite a minimum response with no fit and nowhere to go.

Quote

With a single suit hand 'without direction'(?), why not bid 3H(?) with inv. values and either cuebid(and later bid 4H) or bid 4H with a better hand?

That is exactly what I do.

Quote

How often do you hold a game force 'with the other pair making a 2/1 overcall in your auction? 

Not often

Quote

The cuebid is a fairly rare bid after an enemy 2/1 overcall.  Your making a simple reply to a negative double 'very wide ranging' seems to me to be creating many more problems than it might solve. 

If your method works for you, enjoy.  I simply do not see the advantages of overloading the much more common bid to somewhat narrow the range of a fairly rare 'jump bid.'

Should a 6-5 hand with something like 3.5-4 losers really get included in a
non-forcing 'and not even inv. bid of 2Ds? 

This doesn't create problems that are not already there in standard bidding.

However jumping with invitational hands and no guarantee of a fit does create problems. These problems may be worth it in the long run I do not know but they are certainly real.

Whether a jump is GF or invitational it will be relatively uncommon. Overloading 2♦ does not narrow the range or 3♦ unless you are making a jump to 3♦ both invitational and forcing which would create additional problems.

With a good 6-5 hand most often I would take an optimistic view and force to game and reject 3NT.

Quote

Does your partner bid game "holding KQxx of diamonds and out" opposite your simple 2D reply?  That seems to place a very great burden on your partner that requires their 'viewing' a sub minimum negative double as 'a required' invitation game bid after your very wide ranging 'non jump' 2D bid.

Probably not but does partner bid game with that sub-minimum takeout double when you make an invitational jump to 3♦. Maybe the diamond holding can be revalued but whether this will come to enough to be confident of underwriting game is another matter.

As I said it is the same burden that partner bears in a similar uncontested auction.