[inquiry]

jillybean2, on Nov 16 2006, 01:05 AM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 15 2006, 07:07 AM, said:

I half agree with Roland. He wants it to be limit raise or game force, not both. I happen to think you can play it as limit raise or SLAM try. That is, you can play it not as a continious stregnth from say good 9 up, but rather it is good 9 to 11 or so, or 15, 16+. The idea being, if parnter tries to sign off in 3♠ and you bid again you have the slam try hand. The point being for the slam value hand is if your partner accepts the game try if you have the limit hand, then you will have enough extra for slam (or at least to make a slam move).

It puts way too much pressure on the partnership in a competitive auction if responder can have anywhere from 9 up.

I also follow Robson/Segal here with this 3H bid showing low ODR, while 2NT shows high ODR (offensive to defensive ratio) .And both 3H and 2NT deny the abilityto make a fit jump to 4C or 4d, or a splinter 4H.

Thanks for the reply, so with 12-14 in a competitive auction you simply bid game?

A good general rule in competitive bidding is to bid one more than you would wihout competive bidding. There is some grey areas...of course. So the short, general answer is that with 12 hcp and a fit for partner who opened, on this auction, I would almost assuredly force to game, but of course one would have to see the hand. With 13-14 and fit for partner, or course you are going to force to game.

The question of how you are going to force to game is a different matter. As noted in this thread, the cue-bid is one way to support. A 2NT bid is another. As are splinters or fit jumps.

And it also depends somewhat on your other agreements, that is, what does 1♠=(2♥)=4♠ show. Is this weak and preemptive, or are you promising minimum game value? Finally, if you are going to jump 4♠ with 12-14 or whatever game going values you want to use if for, you should know what you are going to do if they bid 5♥. That is, if you bid 4♠ directly, you have not help guide the decision should competition continue. This is why I like fit jumps so much, they get your partner to participate in the decision to double or bid on. This is more acute if the majors were reversed.

This is also an advantage of using 2NT as an offensively oriented raise and the cue-bid as a defensively oriented raise. Should they bid on later, you have already expressed good defense on one auction and good offense on the other. So if partner makes a forcing pass, regardless of which you expressed, he is allowing you to further evaluate (was it that much more offensive than defense, or do I have extra defense in the defensive one).

[keylime]

OK, here is what I play

1M (interference) ?

2NT -

Spoiler

forces 3C, either to play in a longish suit below 3M, or the start or any limit/GF that is defensive is nature. Offensive LR's I treat as G/F; I might as well be in game.

2NT - 3C - 3M:

Spoiler

A hand that is a defensive LR. Pard can now freely double.

2NT - 3C - 3NT:

Spoiler

A hand that wants to play 3NT

3NT -

Spoiler

a raise to 4, splinter in overcall suit

2NT - 3C - 4M:

Spoiler

defensive G/F

3M directly - offensive G/F.

Spoiler

I find that preemptive reraises hurt far more than they help, but then again I am a constructive bidder by nature these days.

4M direct -

Spoiler

preemptive, attacking bid, with some unknown shortage. 5332's are to be avoided unless NV vs. red.

If want the 4th interference stuff, holler fast.

[Robert]

Thanks keylime

A couple of questions/comments.

Bidding 2NT as 'either' a long suit or a defensive type limit raise seems very vulnerable to either single raises of the overcall or 'jump' raises(or even letting the overcaller rebid at the three level) How does partner know 'if' he is facing support or is in a misfit auction?

If you hold an offensive LR, down one(two?) is not always a good score. If partner opened a dog, bidding game with an offensive limit raise opposite a real dog opening seems to be inferior bidding to me.

Maybe at IMPs when I only need to make 38+% of my vul. games to break even, however, non vul. at IMPs or any vul. at MPs, this appears to be a poor gamble.

"If" the other pair does not jam the auction, partner will get the correct information, if they do bid, has a wheel come off of our auction?

Using the 3NT bid as a splinter gains what? What does 1M-(2Y)-4Y show 'if' it is not a splinter bid? You may avoid a double, however, you are still giving them more room to 'show support' or to make lead directing bids and/or 'fit showing' bids.

My defensive auctions would be making 'lead' directing bids by passed hands and 'fit showing' bids by unpassed hands.

My 3NT jump would show a desire to play 3NT. My splinter jump cue would show the splinter raise. Why shoulld I give them the room to 'cheaply' show support at the three level? Giving them the 4 level to make some raises, direct leads and/or show fit 'showing' bids seems a large price to pay to avoid a 'possible' double.

I switched to the Meckwell style 3M jump as showing 4+ trumps and @7-9 values. It seems to give me better results than the 3M 'weak' style.

Thanks again for the added information,

Regards,
Robert

[keylime]

Robert,

This scheme works under the following conditions (hidden text coming):

1.

Spoiler

You must play soundish openers. If you believe in light initial action, add a queen or subtract a loser in your evaluation.

2.

Spoiler

The ability to get out in 3 of a suit is nice. It allows responder to compete.

3.

Spoiler

It pays to be aggressive: the offensive LR's I've found a solid level of success with at any form of scoring.

4.

Spoiler

You can play mixed raises if you'd like, and that is part of my scheme: 1M-3M in and out of comp is mixed.

5.

Spoiler

Lastly, you can still play 3NT. 2NT, then 3NT. I've gained many penalties by this 2NT puppet and hammering them when they try that cutesy raise to 3M on me.

6.

Spoiler

I also forget the 4 level bid directly (comment coming): They are fit jumps with 4 trumps normally, sometimes 3.

Give it a try, I think you'll like it a lot.

[blackshoe]

I don't know why posters on bbo are so fond of hidden text. When I see it (or don't see it, if you like) I usually just skip it.

[Robert]

Hi keylime

All of your chosen methods are not what I currently play. I do thank you for the additional information, however, several of your choices are just not my cup of tea.

2. I play good/bad 2NT so I can compete and/or force 'without' a fit.

3. If your methods work for you, enjoy them. I am very aggressive in the bidding, however, my chosen bidding are the methods that 'I' like to play.

4. We both agree that the 7-9 value(4+ trump) 3M bid is a good bid.

5. If I played in a field that often offers large penalties at the three level, I would of course take up your method here.

6. I like 'fit showing' bids a lot. Non jump 'fit bids' by a passed hand is great bridge IMHO.

We both play several of the same kinds of bids. We also play different methods in some other places.

I am a bridge system nut, with 400+ bridge books. Chances are that I have played almost anything that showed up in Bridge since the late 60s. Forcing Pass, Roman, Neapolitan, Blue Team, Romex, Precision, etc.

Regards,
Robert

[mike777]

Robert, on Nov 16 2006, 07:20 PM, said:

Hi keylime

All of your chosen methods are not what I currently play.  I do thank you for the additional information, however, several of your choices are just not my cup of tea.

2.  I play good/bad 2NT so I can compete and/or force 'without' a fit.

3.  If your methods work for you, enjoy them.  I am very aggressive in the bidding, however, my chosen bidding are the methods that 'I' like to play.

4.  We both agree that the 7-9 value(4+ trump) 3M bid is a good bid. 

5.  If I played in a field that often offers large penalties at the three level, I would of course take up your method here. 

6.  I like 'fit showing' bids a lot.  Non jump 'fit bids' by a passed hand is great bridge IMHO. 

We both play several of the same kinds of bids.  We also play different methods in some other places. 

I am a bridge system nut, with 400+ bridge books.  Chances are that I have played almost anything that showed up in Bridge since the late 60s.  Forcing Pass, Roman, Neapolitan, Blue Team, Romex, Precision, etc.

Regards,
Robert

Simple Club.....? combo of Neapolitan and Roman? See Bridge Encyclopedia

[pbleighton]

"Ok, how bad is this opening bid?"

Fine, as long as pd knows you do this.

Marginal but not terrible with a pickup pd.

Peter

[jillybean]

inquiry, on Nov 16 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

. This is why I like fit jumps so much, they get your partner to participate in the decision to double or bid on. This is more acute if the majors were reversed.

Please explain jump fits

[inquiry]

jillybean2, on Nov 18 2006, 11:01 AM, said:

inquiry, on Nov 16 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

. This is why I like fit jumps so much, they get your partner to participate in the decision to double or bid on. This is more acute if the majors were reversed.

Please explain jump fits

Fit jump is short for a Fit Jump Showing Response. Playing fit jumps, a jump in a suit shows 1) length in the suit bid (generally with King or Queen Jack kind of combos in the suit) plus support for partner's suit. Very general principle is wiht a double fit, partner is more likely to bid on over a sac, and if partner is short/weak in the fit jump suit with values in the other side suit, he is more likely to double if they take the sacrafice. It also helps with slam bidding.