[jillybean]

1♠ (2♥) 3♥

3♥ limit raise or better in ♠ - does anyone play 3♥ here shows a ♥ control Ace or void?
tyia
jb

[neilkaz]

3♥ can be either LROB (which I much prefer), a game forcing spade raise, or any game forcing hand (in that case probably with a ♥ control).

In my late father's day, 3H most likely was a GF bid with a ♥ control, but most modern experts I know, really feel that they can Q controls later on if the hand is slamish.

Personally, I try to insist on LROB. Just my experiences .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

I play 3H as unconditionally G/F and offensive, because I have multiple ways to show degrees of limit raise and offensive/defensive in nature.

[neilkaz]

keylime, on Nov 14 2006, 07:33 PM, said:

I play 3H as unconditionally G/F and offensive, because I have multiple ways to show degrees of limit raise and offensive/defensive in nature.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see more details of your methods here.

Thx .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

I feel that it might not be advisable to post in this forum; it involves a rather intrincate scheme that most beginners, intermediates, and some advanced players would struggle to grasp successfully.

[P_Marlowe]

keylime, on Nov 14 2006, 09:04 PM, said:

I feel that it might not be advisable to post in this forum; it involves a rather intrincate scheme that most beginners, intermediates, and some advanced players would struggle to grasp successfully.

fair enough, but why even mentioned
the existence here?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Nov 14 2006, 08:11 PM, said:

1♠ (2♥) 3♥

3♥ limit raise or better in ♠ - does anyone play 3♥ here shows a ♥ control Ace or void?
tyia
jb

Hi,

you would show shortage via a splinter.

You may like to distiguish between a
void and a single, but this would require
a complete scheme.
One option would be, to use a jump to
3NT after a major suit opener to show a
unsepcified void, with 4C asking.

But this is only of interest in case you are
looking for slam, and before you go looking
for slam, you need to find out, if you have
the power for game, i.e. you need to have a way
to invite.
Using the cue as LROB (never saw it before)
is a very easy / simple method, but fairly effective.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Walddk]

I don't think you would find many who play this as showing a heart control too. By the way, I am not fond of letting 3♥ be invitational (limit) or better. I think it's more important for opener to know if you have a limit or game forcing hand with support.

Therefore, I suggest that you play 2NT as game forcing (Jacoby or similar as if there had been no overcall) and the cue bid as limit. Many top pairs play it like that; Sabine Auken - Daniela von Arnim for example.

Yes, you lose the natural meaning of 2NT (10-12 with stop(s) in the suit RHO overcalled), but if you have this hand, you can start with a negative double. It's all a matter of frequency and what's best for your whole system, and I believe you are better off if you are able distinguish between GF and limit hands with support for opener's major.

Roland

[Robert]

Hi keylime

I also am very interested in your bidding methods in this area.

Perhaps a 'hidden' text with a suitable warning for the beginning player(intermeadiate or 'some' advanced players)

I am 'not' very concerned that new bidding methods would cause me any possible harm.

A PM to neilkaz and myself would avoid any possible harm to newbies, intermediates and some advanced players.

Regards,
Robert

[inquiry]

I half agree with Roland. He wants it to be limit raise or game force, not both. I happen to think you can play it as limit raise or SLAM try. That is, you can play it not as a continious stregnth from say good 9 up, but rather it is good 9 to 11 or so, or 15, 16+. The idea being, if parnter tries to sign off in 3♠ and you bid again you have the slam try hand. The point being for the slam value hand is if your partner accepts the game try if you have the limit hand, then you will have enough extra for slam (or at least to make a slam move).

It puts way too much pressure on the partnership in a competitive auction if responder can have anywhere from 9 up.

I also follow Robson/Segal here with this 3H bid showing low ODR, while 2NT shows high ODR (offensive to defensive ratio) .And both 3H and 2NT deny the abilityto make a fit jump to 4C or 4d, or a splinter 4H.

[kenrexford]

On a similar vein to some of the posts here, I understand that Meckwell had some back-and-forth on how to distinguish 2NT from 3♥, whether GF, limit, 3-card, or 4-card. I believe the uncertainty revolved around whether to focus suit length (3-card limit+ or 4-card limit+) or to focus strength (3-card limit+ or 4-card limit+). There might even be dispute as to which is better for the "weaker" holding, to enable more space for game or slam tries, assuming a fourth-hand pass.

[jillybean]

Thanks for the replies.

Over 1M I do play 2nt and splinters as GF/slam interest.

The hand that prompted the question was this

1♠ (2♥) 3♥

---

I passed the invitation reasoning the K♥ was wasted values, had we had the ability to show 1st level ♥ control we would have reached game.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Nov 15 2006, 10:06 AM, said:

Thanks for the replies.

Over 1M I do play 2nt and splinters as GF/slam interest.

The hand that prompted the question was this

1♠ (2♥) 3♥

---

I passed the invitation reasoning the K♥ was wasted values, had we had the ability to show 1st level ♥ control we would have reached game.

Hi,

I would not loose a lot of sleep about
this hand (*), there is no wastage, what
so ever, even the single King of hearts
is relevant to make game, and so the
doubleton in diamonds, and you still
need a 3-2 spade break to loose only
2 trump tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

(*)... besides the opening bid, but that is
a style issue

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on Nov 15 2006, 08:22 AM, said:

(*)... besides the opening bid, but that is
a style issue

Ok, how bad is this opening bid? I thought it was one of my better ones.

---

[neilkaz]

Your opening is OK with me but make the stiff king a queen and I pass.

Just my style .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

K. Silly question: How to do the hidden text?

I'll post it in that vein.

[the hog]

Ben's treatment is nice - limit raise or very strong, with 2NT as the GF raise.

[jillybean]

keylime, on Nov 15 2006, 09:07 PM, said:

K. Silly question: How to do the hidden text?

I'll post it in that vein.

When you compose a post there is a

Spoiler

HIDDEN

button on the second row of Code Buttons.
All you need to do is

Spoiler

highlight the text that you want to hide

and press the button!

[jillybean]

neilkaz, on Nov 15 2006, 08:28 PM, said:

Your opening is OK with me but make the stiff king a queen and I pass.

Just my style .. neilkaz ..

Make the stiff K a Q and I pass too

[jillybean]

inquiry, on Nov 15 2006, 07:07 AM, said:

I half agree with Roland. He wants it to be limit raise or game force, not both. I happen to think you can play it as limit raise or SLAM try. That is, you can play it not as a continious stregnth from say good 9 up, but rather it is good 9 to 11 or so, or 15, 16+. The idea being, if parnter tries to sign off in 3♠ and you bid again you have the slam try hand. The point being for the slam value hand is if your partner accepts the game try if you have the limit hand, then you will have enough extra for slam (or at least to make a slam move).

It puts way too much pressure on the partnership in a competitive auction if responder can have anywhere from 9 up.

I also follow Robson/Segal here with this 3H bid showing low ODR, while 2NT shows high ODR (offensive to defensive ratio) .And both 3H and 2NT deny the abilityto make a fit jump to 4C or 4d, or a splinter 4H.

Thanks for the reply, so with 12-14 in a competitive auction you simply bid game?