[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

2 passes. What do you open?

---

If you open 2C, would you also open 2C when reversing:
- Hearts and spades: 5=6=v=2
- Majors with minors: v=2=6=5
- longer clubs: v=2=5=6

[jillybean]

2♣ for me (100% gf)

♥ and ♠ reverse 1♥ , 2♠
I dont understand #2 it looks like ♣and♦
♣ and ♦ reverse 1♣, 2♦

jb

This post has been edited by jillybean2: 2006-November-05, 08:36

[kgr]

jillybean2, on Nov 5 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

2♣ for me

I dont understand the other hands in question.

jb

fi last one: with v=Ax=AKQ32=KQ9832 do you still open 2♣

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1S.

Unless you play 2C as 100% game forcing,
in which case you can open 2C.


With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

It will be no surprise that I open 1♠. For all the usual reasons, 1♠. Two-suiters almost never need to preempt one's own auction by opening 2♣.

There are 22 missing hcp and 24 missing minor suit cards, so it is vanishingly unlikely that the auction will go 1♠ PPP and I am almost certainly better off after any other start than if I open 2♣. Imagine 2♣ [♦preempt] anything by partner [♦ raise].

How do I show my 2 suits after that start?

And so on.... this issue of opening 2♣ on complex hands keeps getting raised and it is easy to predict those who always choose 2♣ (and those who bid 1♠)

While I appreciate that this is not a 'one size fits all' situation, my feeling is that many of the 2♣ bidders on these hand-types are somewhat lacking in confidence in either their bidding judgment or that of their partners... and open 2♣ 'to make sure we reach game'. I open 1♠ 'to maximize the chances of reaching the best contract'.

[hrothgar]

Easy 1♠ opening...

[GaryFisch]

Mikeh, if I had you for a partner, I'd be happy to open the six carder, but you underestimate the randomness and/or cluelessness potential of players here. Perhaps it's because I'm only an intermediate player myself and rarely play on tables where permission is required, but I've seen too many players fail to respond with 8 HCP or so. If I'm not sure of my partner, I will always open 2♣ on this type of hand to be sure of reaching game, although I've also seen a pass below game after 2♣ with 6+ HCP. My 2♣ is "almost" GF - after a second negative and opener rebidding same suit, responder may pass (eg., 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♣-3♠-Pass).

[jillybean]

Makes a lot of sense, I do bid poor 2♣'s to force game, next time this comes up I will try 1♠ and in future I will wait for Mike to post the correct answer before replying AND Im giving up indys.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Nov 5 2006, 10:23 AM, said:

<snip>
... and in future I will wait for Mike to post the correct answer before replying 
<snip>

Hopefully not.

First: In most cases there is no correct answer at all,
several choices are often quite sensible.
I know it, I have been quite often alone in my corner ,
but I have the luck to play with a understanding partner,
who adopts some thing and tries drags me to the main
stream in cases he does not agree.

Second: Quite often a "wrong" post makes it easier to
formulate certain things / explaining certain points.
If MikeH gives you an answer, he assumes a certain
background with regard to style, partnership agreement
and so on, and he may ignore certain things, which are
obvious to him ... and this is true for all other posters.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

GaryFisch, on Nov 5 2006, 10:17 AM, said:

Mikeh, if I had you for a partner, I'd be happy to open the six carder, but you underestimate the randomness and/or cluelessness potential of players here.  Perhaps it's because I'm only an intermediate player myself and rarely play on tables where permission is required, but I've seen too many players fail to respond with 8 HCP or so.  If I'm not sure of my partner, I will always open 2♣ on this type of hand to be sure of reaching game, although I've also seen a pass below game after 2♣ with 6+ HCP.  My 2♣ is "almost" GF - after a second negative and opener rebidding same suit, responder may pass (eg., 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♣-3♠-Pass).

I appreciate your point, and your comment. But surely the purpose of discussions like this is for ALL players who read/post to learn something about how to bid well. So you find a partner who passes 1♠ with 8 hcp. If that person is a friend or regular partner, discuss it: refer him or her to the forum. If not, then avoid that partner in the future: become more selective. Eventually, if you bid consistently well, you will find yourself routinely playing with those who you recognize as similar (and they will recognize you as a sound bidder as well).

If the post was: 'playing with an incompetent partner who passes with good hands and no fit, what should I bid?', then the answer may be different

But if the question is, 'what would the best bridge bid be on this hand?', then 1♠.

No-one will get better by intentionally bidding poorly. Your 'idiot' partner, who passes 1♠ on x Axxxx xxx Kxxx cannot get better him or herself if you cater to to his or her errors. Nor can you. Now, maybe such a partner cannot or will not get better, but the solution is to find better games. BTW, that can seem a difficult process, but becoming a good bridge player is (for most people..including me to the extent that I have done so) a long and difficult journey.

[Walddk]

1♠. Whenever I have a strong 2-suiter I try to avoid opening 2♣ if I have the tiniest excuse. I know, it may go 1♠ all pass, but I am not particularly worried.

Roland

[Winstonm]

1S unless you hold very specific agreements within your 2C structure to show 2-suited hands. In a pick-up game, 1S for sure.

This is a nice hand for ACOL-like treatment, where you could open a 1-round forcing 2S and then follow with 4H.

[sfbp]

mikeh, on Nov 5 2006, 08:32 AM, said:

No-one will get better by intentionally bidding poorly. Your 'idiot' partner, who passes 1♠ on x Axxxx xxx Kxxx cannot get better him or herself if you cater to to his or her errors. Nor can you. Now, maybe such a partner cannot or will not get better, but the solution is to find better games. BTW, that can seem a difficult process, but becoming a good bridge player is (for most people..including me to the extent that I have done so) a long and difficult journey.

Is it possible you're missing something, Mike? <grin>

I figured out why my (polish-born) real live partner passed a six count one day, claiming that he needed 7 to bid. He's not a particularly timid bidder; far from it.

The answer lies in the fact that he sometimes plays Polish club. In fact he frequently plays at the Polish Club here, where all the players are, well.... Polish.

In WJ, openers have a way to bid a strong hand, so they know that bids of 1S are limited to 17 points or so.

It's the same with Precision. I will pass your quoted 8 pointer in a flash, because I don't have to allow for 21 point openers.

I have done some mentoring recently (I won't dignify it by calling it teaching) and one thing I came up with was to explain to my mentees WHY they are supposed to respond 1 over 1 on a FIVE count. And several times I thrust it down their poor throats that the reason is FEAR - fear that partner may have one of these whoppers, and miss game (21+5=26). What the same players do when they have 5 points and you open a spade, noone knows, but that's just "standard" bidding, lol.

In other words making one bid is conditioned not really by whether we like the hand or not, but by the minimum size of partner's "strong" opening. This point is rarely familiar to beginning players, I think.

The difficult journey you refer to is made doubly difficult by almost unlimited openers.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

1S

What do the 2C opener bidders do after 2C-(4D)-any-(5D or even 6D)?

Why worry about the results with people who cannot bid properly? Relax and daydream about something nice.

People that cannot bid often also cannot play. The results of playing with this person should rightly be sub par as the normal result. Finish the game, thank the person and do not ask for anther game. Why continue to punish yourself.

Regards,
Robert

[pclayton]

I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid here.

This hand has 2 losers, and 6 controls; more than enough for a GF opening. It will likely make game opposite any hand at the table, and slam with at least one of them.

If I open 1♠, and pard responds (thats a big 'if') and I make a jump shift to 3♥. I have described my hand reasonably well and are at the 3 level. If pard passes 1♠, my opponents will probably compete, and I can again make a high call in hearts (probably the 4 level), which again is a reasonable approach. On a bad day, 1♠ will be passed out. It won't happen much but it does happen, and it has happened to me.

If I open 2♣, pard will responds 2♦, I will bid 2♠. Presumably I will get a raise, or a 2nd negative or 3 of a minor and I can try 3♥. This is a better description than a jump shift. Furthermore, as some have indicated, if one responds on garbage to one bids, a jump shift isn't an absolute force. It is for me, but for those partnerships, I'd be wary about opening and being left in 3♥.

If pard bids something other than 2♦ I have a minor problem, but this auction happens perhaps 1 in 25 times. Many pairs have thrown out positive responses althogether for this reason.

I also try to avoid opening 2♣ with a 2 suiter, but this hand is just too good, and I have both majors. A 2♣ opening is ill-advised if my heart suit was clubs, or maybe even diamonds. But with both majors, I have an easy rebid and I'm not 'preempting' anyone with a 2♣ opening. The generalization of not opening 2♣ with a 2 suiter is sound, but its still a generalization, and one needs to plan the auction appropriately.

Will the opponents preempt us in the minors after we open 2♣? Possibly. But they may also preempt us when we open a 1 bid, and they are vul., so this possibility is reduced.

[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

Bidding:
P-(p)-1S-All pass

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I asked - with the additional questions - because I tend to agree with pclayton now (maybe influenced by the bad result). With S and H 2 suiter there is not a big problem after opening 2C.

[cherdano]

mikeh, on Nov 5 2006, 05:02 PM, said:

It will be no surprise that I open 1♠. For all the usual reasons, 1♠. Two-suiters almost never need to preempt one's own auction by opening 2♣.

There are 22 missing hcp and 24 missing minor suit cards, so it is vanishingly unlikely that the auction will go 1♠ PPP and I am almost certainly better off after any other start than if I open 2♣. Imagine 2♣ [♦preempt] anything by partner [♦ raise].

How do I show my 2 suits after that start?

And so on.... this issue of opening 2♣ on complex hands keeps getting raised and it is easy to predict those who always choose 2♣ (and those who bid 1♠)

While I appreciate that this is not a 'one size fits all' situation, my feeling is that many of the 2♣ bidders on these hand-types are somewhat lacking in confidence in either their bidding judgment or that of their partners... and open 2♣ 'to make sure we reach game'. I open 1♠ 'to maximize the chances of reaching the best contract'.

So Mike, how do you want to find out whether to bid slam? After 1S-1N-3H-3S, what do you do? You could still hold the example hand KQJxx AKxxx Ax x from the other thread. I think just about any sequence that doesn't force to slam could also be understood as a complex weaker hand that is just trying to find the right strain.

In your ♦preempt auctions after a 2♣ opening, there is always pass-then-pull to show a 2-suiter.

[GaryFisch]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I agree that one should make the right bids in one's system without worrying about partners who don't know how to bid. Perhaps I have been compensating a little, which is not good, since not only do the good players then see me as not so good, but I really become worse through bad habits.

On the merits of this hand, though, seems to me game is very likely if partner has one of the following

1. ♠xx ♥xxx ♦ xxxxx ♣xxx

2. ♠xxx ♥x ♦xxxxx ♣xxxx

3. ♠J ♥J ♦xxxxxx ♣xxxxx

and similar. Surely this is not too much to ask; all of the above would be passed after a 1♠ opening. Also, as pclayton pointed out, 1♠ followed by 3♥ may not be absolutely forcing. One could deal with up to 5♦ preempt in various ways (I would probably bid 6♦ asking partner to pick a major slam). Overall, 2♣ has a lot to recommend it.

Gary

[mikeh]

GaryFisch, on Nov 5 2006, 02:01 PM, said:

.  Also, as pclayton pointed out, 1♠ followed by 3♥ may not be absolutely forcing. 

I wonder if Phil can give any examples of good players, playing 2/1 or sayc or any other standard based method who would pass after 1♠ then 3♥?

I may be going out on a limb, but my bet is that he knows none.

Now, this is not the same as saying that one cannot have an agreement that the jumpshift is non-forcing. Personally, I believe that to be unplayable in the long run, but that isn't the point. The point is that in a standard method 3♥ is no more passable than an original 2♣ opening. So to use the argument that 3♥ may be passed as a justification for 2♣ is invalid. Go ahead and argue the merits of 2♣ vis a vis 1♠, but using the non-forcing nature of the GAME FORCE jumpshift as an advantage for 2♣ renders the other arguments suspect.

[pclayton]

mikeh, on Nov 5 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

GaryFisch, on Nov 5 2006, 02:01 PM, said:

.  Also, as pclayton pointed out, 1♠ followed by 3♥ may not be absolutely forcing. 

I wonder if Phil can give any examples of good players, playing 2/1 or sayc or any other standard based method who would pass after 1♠ then 3♥?

I may be going out on a limb, but my bet is that he knows none.

Justin is on record as saying that he would.

Furthermore, I can remember a specific example where Geir Helgemo passed a jump shift that Jimmy Cayne made in either the Spingold or the Vanderbilt a few years ago.