[pclayton]

I had a disagreement with one of the regular posters about the meaning of a bid tonight. I'm prepared to eat crow, but I wanted to ask all of you what you thought.

Its IMPs, and its equal vulnerability (white on white, specifically). You open 1♦, and hear 1♠ on your left, 2♥ by pard and 4♠ on your right.

Two part question:

1. Is pass forcing here?

2. Double is characterized by the folowing:

2A. It shows a hand that really wants to defend 4♠; KQTx, x, KQxxx, Axx. Don't pull unless you have a strong reason to, and that reason may be you are interested in slam.

2B. It shows a hand that wants to suggest defending 4♠, but can certainly handle a pull. One might also call this 'convertible values'; AJx, Qx, Kxxxx, Axx. Pulling is expected with a hand with better than average offense.

2C. It shows a minimum hand that has no interest in the 5 level and is expressing a mild opinion about the contract and 'warns' pard. It expects pard to leave in the double with a normal 2♥ call, and is more defensive than offensive in nature: AJ, Qx, QJxxx, Kxxx.

Note: In you comments, also express what opener should do with the other two hands, if they don't show a double. If you think double can show 2 of these hands; mark 'other'.

[helene_t]

Pass is forcing (unless you opened in 3rd seat of course).

I think the standard treatment is that dbl is a strong suggestion to defend while pass would express doubt. Personally, I prefer to invert pass and dbl.

[cherdano]

I dont see how pass can be forcing here. Jumps to 4M aren't always weak. 2H freebids are often stretched a little.

For me, double is at least convertible values, can be even more takeout oriented. What else do you bid with x Kxx AKJxx KQxx?

With a trump stack, or with a weak NT hand, you pass (of course).

[Codo]

1. If 2 Heart was non forcing, then my pass is surely non forcing too.
If 2 Heart was forcing, it is getting tricky and I would prefer to play pass as forcing.

2. I think, there is no reason to cater for possibility A. It simply does not happen often enough.
SO you have to choose between B and C and should play pass and double to show these hands. I have no strong feelings, which way is superior.

Playing nfb as I do, double must show the hand, where you want to peanlisze opps, else pd cannot handle your pass.
If you play pass as forcing, I would switch the meaning and pass shows a hand willing to defend or with slam interest.

[flytoox]

If you play 2H as forcing but doesnot promise rebid, then pass is not forcing. I think this should be default agreement without discussion.

However there is a school which says 2H creates forcing pass at 4 level or above.

[flytoox]

cherdano, on Nov 7 2006, 08:13 AM, said:

I dont see how pass can be forcing here. Jumps to 4M aren't always weak. 2H freebids are often stretched a little.

For me, double is at least convertible values, can be even more takeout oriented. What else do you bid with x Kxx AKJxx KQxx?

With a trump stack, or with a weak NT hand, you pass (of course).

In this sequence you are unlikely to have a trump stack, so most of time your dbl just says "I want to defend".

WIth the hand you gave, I would certainly bid on rather than dbl.

[Blofeld]

As so often happens I find myself agreeing with Arend.

[whereagles]

You really have to set your conventions here. To ask "is pass forcing?" makes no sense if you don't have agreements. For instance, if you play Robson/Segal style, then..

1) Pass is NOT forcing (would be if opps were to bid 5♣, and because 2♦ is an inv+ bid).

2) Dbl would be for take-out. So, it's none of your options; rather it's a hand with take-out shape and possibly a few extras.

[Walddk]

1. Pass is not forcing.

Double shows extras with at least tolerance for hearts, and does not promise a stack of trumps (how can I have on this auction?). Pull if you expect to make at the 5-level; otherwise leave it in.

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Assuming 2H was forcing for one round,
i.e. 2H promises inv.+ values, pass is forcing.

But I believe this forcing pass agreement is
non standard, unless 2H was already game
forcing. You need to play sound openers.

It would be standard, if the opponents had
preempted to the 5 level.

And I choose 2C, I would double with
all of your given hands.
If partner pulls the double and bis on the 5
level, he has no interest in a slam contract,
if he wants to look for slam, he can bid 4NT,
whatever that means ....

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdeegan]

To me the key to this situation is to recall that partner's 2♥ call may and probably does indicate relatively moderate values. Say,

x
KQ108x
Axxx
Jxx

Opposite this, or worse, we might not beat 4♠, and we may have no makable game contract to protect. So, a pass has to be non-forcing. The double ought to be used to advise partner that I have extras in the form of convertible values (15+HCP??), and not enough cards in hearts such that the LOTT dictates bidding on.

Partner can pull with long or short spades, a good six-bagger in hearts and like 8 to 11 (approx) HCP. In other words a good playing hand w/o much defense.

[awm]

There are good cases to be made for passes forcing or non-forcing. It depends on how likely you are to stretch to bid 2♥ on borderline values. Without discussion I'd tend to assume that pass is not forcing but that partner will very rarely pass this out (has to be a sub-minimum 2♥ call).

As for double, I think it should show the following three things in some combination:

(1) At most two hearts. One heart is fine.
(2) Something in spades, typically Hx or the like. Certainly not a singleton or void spade.
(3) Mild extra values, or a minimum with good defense (points in aces, etc.)

So my interpretation of the possible calls would be:

(1) Pass = my hand is fairly minimum. I wouldn't mind hearing you bid on with extra shape, or double with good defense, or even pass with a very minimum 2♥ bid.
(2) Double = I have reasonable defense for an opening bid, and your heart tricks are probably scoring (I don't have a lot of hearts). I'm not eager to hear 5♥ from you, but if you have a freak distributional hand feel free to bid on.
(3) Bid = I have a really good fit for you, or a lot of shape, or extras with a decent fit and not very many spades.

I think A is a double, but it's not really a possible hand so I'd ignore that. The most likely double looks something like B, although I'd also double with C if my ♣K was the ace (I want another sure defensive trick to double with only two trumps).

[Echognome]

In my view pass is not forcing. If we are in a game forcing auction, then I would play pass as forcing. (e.g. 1♥ - (P) - 2♣(GF) - (4♠)) But here 2♥ was only forcing one round. If we required that a one round force created a forcing pass, then we might as well make our one round force be game forcing. I.e. it just doesn't make sense.

Double to me should be simply "values", or maybe we should call it "optional" to use Roland's preferred lingo.

[gwnn]

This really depends on one's style. If, however, we play reasonably sound openers and sound forcing free bids, forcing pass would make sense (as 4♠ has very very distant chances and then p would probably pull). If pass if forcing, choice C is obvious.

[mikeh]

I agree with awm.

In one partnership, I play 2♥ as GF, and in that case, pass is clearly forcing. In all other partnerships, I play 2♥ promises a rebid, but is not gf: it forces, essentially, to 3♥. Since their bid is higher than our forced level, and our forced level is a partial, this cannot, for me, be a forcing pass.

Indeed, in standard methods, it is silly to play it as forcing: that means that on a hand on which you were potentially stretching to play 3♥, you have to either double a cold 4♠ or go for a number at the 5-level??? Not logical.

[Apollo81]

awm, on Nov 7 2006, 11:04 AM, said:

There are good cases to be made for passes forcing or non-forcing. It depends on how likely you are to stretch to bid 2♥ on borderline values. Without discussion I'd tend to assume that pass is not forcing but that partner will very rarely pass this out (has to be a sub-minimum 2♥ call).

As for double, I think it should show the following three things in some combination:

(1) At most two hearts. One heart is fine.
(2) Something in spades, typically Hx or the like. Certainly not a singleton or void spade.
(3) Mild extra values, or a minimum with good defense (points in aces, etc.)

So my interpretation of the possible calls would be:

(1) Pass = my hand is fairly minimum. I wouldn't mind hearing you bid on with extra shape, or double with good defense, or even pass with a very minimum 2♥ bid.
(2) Double = I have reasonable defense for an opening bid, and your heart tricks are probably scoring (I don't have a lot of hearts). I'm not eager to hear 5♥ from you, but if you have a freak distributional hand feel free to bid on.
(3) Bid = I have a really good fit for you, or a lot of shape, or extras with a decent fit and not very many spades.

I think A is a double, but it's not really a possible hand so I'd ignore that. The most likely double looks something like B, although I'd also double with C if my ♣K was the ace (I want another sure defensive trick to double with only two trumps).

Agree with Adam, although I think this auction will pass out a bit more than he seems to think. I guess that means I think 2♥ will be "sub minimum" a fair pct of the time.

[joshs]

Speaking as the partner here, I have a few things to say:

1. If pass was not forcing, then x just shows cards. You can't pass holding
xxx Ax AKxxx AKx or xx AQ AKxxx Axxx since its not forcing. You have to show you have a good hand. Thus if pass was not forcing x doesn't even show an honor in their suit. It just shows a good hand that hasn't located a fit yet (or a good hand with a fit that wouldn't mind defnding anyway).

2. The vocabulary of bidding has to cater to the common hands. Even if x was pure penalty, its not KQTx. You can wait for a few years to ever have that hand (at least against good players). Technically on this auction 1S showed 5 cards (or a strong 4 card holding which is inconsitant with you having KQTx) and so did 4S (I mean we have shown at least 20 points, and more than that unless both opener and responder are minimum distributional hands, so there are not bidding 4S just because they happen to have a balanced 15 count and felt they are going to make it). In a good game the 4 spade bidder will have 5+ trumps, or Hxxx and a void over 99.9% of the time. The other 0.01% of the time the 1S overcall was probably a psych and their partner didn't catch on. The text book penalty x here (assuming x is penalty) would be 3154 shape with an honor in spades and good controls. Perhaps Kxx x Axxxx AKxx. This is a hand with a misfit for partner, and high defense.

Personally, I felt without discussion, 2H showed a good hand (maybe not quite a game force but at least close) and its ineffiecent to play this auction as non-forcing. Yes on rare occasion you will be given partner a choice between 4S-x making and 5 something xed going down for a bigger number but this situation is rare (assuming you have some reasonable minimum standards for the 2H bid so you don't bid 2H on x AQxxxx Qx xxxx and the like). At equal vul I would would guess its under 1% of the time. When we are vul vs not it might be as much as 5% of the time, but they may forget to x us when we are wrong. Further, on the vast magority of hands we need to decide if we should bid on or x them, selling out isn't our best score. Its worth it to on rare occasion get a worse score (because we couldn't pass it out) so that on most hands we can get the very difficult decision of if we should x them or bid on correct.

Consquently, I thought we were in a force. If you think the meaning of x should be penalty, then you secretly think we are in a force also because otherwise you would have a number of impossible to bid good hands like the ones I discussed above.

Assuming we are in a force, what does x and pass show?

A. At this level, bidding on shows 5 level offense (you expect to make your contract the vast majority of the time AND you expect the penalty from defending to be insufficient)

B. Passing shows 4 level offense OR 5 level offense with excellent defense (you expect to make 5 but think the penalty might be bigger than what you can make on offense if partner's ODR is low). A pass usually has a heart fit OR 6D OR 5-5 in the minors OR no spade honor and some hope of a fit.

C. x Says, I have no reason to believe we can make 5 OR I believe the penalty is bigger than what we can make. Basically its a misfit warning.

Now phil had a 0526 10 count. X whatever it means has virtually guaranteed that we have a 9 or 10 card club fit (If partner has at most 3 spades from the auction, at most 2 hearts from the x, and at most 5 diamonds from the x, he has 3-4 clubs).

I think his hand was - Kxxxx Ax QJTxxx

Opposite the textbook penalty x such as: Kxx x Kxxxx AKxx 6C is excellent and 5C is laydown. Even if I had the impossible hand: KQTx x KQxxx Axx 5C is still a fine contract. But penalty x's in all auctions are not an order for partner to pass, its just a suggestion and at higher and higher levels it shows less and less in trumps. I am telling partner if he has a normal 1633 type hand that I think we are better off defending (If I passed, a hand such as x KJxxxx Axx Kxx should bid 5H or slightly better bid 4N planning on bidding 5D to offer a choice assuming the partnership doesn't play 4N as blackwood). If partner has a 2524 or 1534 type hand, he is probably going to x himself even if I passed.

[cherdano]

Josh, you are acting as if someone attacked you. Certainly no need to attack Phil's pass, which he knows wasn't right.

Having said that, I think some of your arguments are just wrong:

1. I don't see how an undiscussed 2♥ is close to game forcing. In BWS, it forces all the way up 3♦. Who wouldn't bid 2♥ with x KQxxxx Kxx xxx? Ok, maybe you wouldn't, but I am sure it would get a significant number of votes.

2. I think you are waaaaaay overestimating the likelyhood that opponents have a 10-card fit (or even a 9-card fit). Good opponents will very often just bid 4♠ when they know they would bid it over 4♥. I wouldn't be surprised to see the 4♠ bidder with 3 nice trumps, a heart singleton, and some more good stuff.

3. Consequently, I think you are way overestimating the likelyhood that a forcing pass will get us overboard.

I agree with you that if pass is NF, then double is mostly card-showing.

[pclayton]

I've never claimed that my pass was right. But it isn't a topic of this discussion.

Frankly, if the double is what I think it should mean, which is my choice "B" above, pulling is even clearer with a 6-5 hand. Only if you think a double of 4♠ is pure penalty, then pass makes some sense. I never thought that.

I felt afterward if Josh thought his pass was forcing, then double makes some sense. But I don't see how pass can be forcing, and the poll seems to agree with my view here.

Maybe if, and only maybe, if we are red on white, then pass can be sensibly played as forcing.