[mrdct]

How would you suggest defending against the following opening structure:

Pass = 0-5 balanced
1C = 0-1 unbalanced or 6-37 balanced or 16+ unbalanced
1D = 2-6 unbalanced
1H = 7-9 unbalanced
1S = 10-12unbalanced
1NT = 13-15 unbalanced

I'm thinking of playing some sort of fert in 2nd seat after the 0-5 balanced opening to try to catch the opps in a one-level penalty (i.e. 1C 0-9 any, pass 13+ any, 1D,1H,1S natural 10-12 and 1NT 10-12 with C).

[Jboling]

I would defend as follows, applying the generic defense I am used to:

Quote

Pass = 0-5 balanced

As after a normal pass

Quote

1C = 0-1 unbalanced or 6-37 balanced or 16+ unbalanced
1D = 2-6 unbalanced
1H = 7-9 unbalanced
1S = 10-12unbalanced

dbl = 3+ cards in suit bid by opponents, usually balanced, or any strong hand (say 18+)
next bid = takeout of suit bid by opponents, nonforcing
other = natural nonforcing

Quote

1NT = 13-15 unbalanced

dbl = balanced 13+, or any strong
other = natural nonforcing

[akhare]

mrdct, on Oct 25 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

How would you suggest defending against the following opening structure:

Pass = 0-5 balanced
1C = 0-1 unbalanced or 6-37 balanced or 16+ unbalanced
1D = 2-6 unbalanced
1H = 7-9 unbalanced
1S = 10-12unbalanced
1NT = 13-15 unbalanced

LOL -- is this system for real?

All systems go over P.

Over 1♣ openings are natural, but limited to say 13 points w/ 1N=12-14. X = any hand w/ 14+ points.

We can probably use the same defence over 1♦, but the X should probably promise a slightly better hand.

Over 1♥/1♠, X = takeout w/ 3+ cards in the bid suit OR any big hand and everything else is natural.

Over 1N, X = balanced 14+ and everything else natural?

[hrothgar]

akhare, on Oct 26 2006, 01:26 AM, said:

mrdct, on Oct 25 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

How would you suggest defending against the following opening structure:

Pass = 0-5 balanced
1C = 0-1 unbalanced or 6-37 balanced or 16+ unbalanced
1D = 2-6 unbalanced
1H = 7-9 unbalanced
1S = 10-12unbalanced
1NT = 13-15 unbalanced

LOL -- is this system for real?

All systems go over P.

Over 1♣ openings are natural, but limited to say 13 points w/ 1N=12-14. X = any hand w/ 14+ points.

We can probably use the same defence over 1♦, but the X should probably promise a slightly better hand.

Over 1♥/1♠, X = takeout w/ 3+ cards in the bid suit OR any big hand and everything else is natural.

Over 1N, X = balanced 14+ and everything else natural?

I wouldn't bother adopting penalty oriented methods against their pass. its hard enough to extract a decent penalty against a high level fert. If they have the entire one level available to scramble I doubt that you'll be able to collect enough to warrant changing methods.

I suspect that there is an AWFUL lot of information missing here. What do opening bids >= 2♣ mean? Unless they never make one of these openings, there are going to be some singificant negative inference.

The 1♣ opening is (typically) gonna be a weak NT. I'd use a modified version of your preferred Weak NT defense.

[cherdano]

mrdct, on Oct 25 2006, 09:00 AM, said:

I'm thinking of playing some sort of fert in 2nd seat after the 0-5 balanced opening to try to catch the opps in a one-level penalty (i.e. 1C 0-9 any, pass 13+ any, 1D,1H,1S natural 10-12 and 1NT 10-12 with C).

I don't understand your point here at all. This is about the best-defined pass of any system I have seen. And you are trying to take advantage of precisely this part of the system? How do you want to penalize them when LHO can just....pass? And if he bids, he doesn't even know partner is weak, he also knows he has some support...

[mrdct]

cherdano, on Oct 25 2006, 07:14 PM, said:

mrdct, on Oct 25 2006, 09:00 AM, said:

I'm thinking of playing some sort of fert in 2nd seat after the 0-5 balanced opening to try to catch the opps in a one-level penalty (i.e. 1C 0-9 any, pass 13+ any, 1D,1H,1S natural 10-12 and 1NT 10-12 with C).

I don't understand your point here at all. This is about the best-defined pass of any system I have seen. And you are trying to take advantage of precisely this part of the system? How do you want to penalize them when LHO can just....pass? And if he bids, he doesn't even know partner is weak, he also knows he has some support...

Yes. Good point. I hadn't really thought that one through. The full opening structure is:

Pass = 0-5 balanced
1C = 0-1 unbalanced or 6-37 balanced or 16+ unbalanced
1D = 2-6 unbalanced
1H = 7-9 unbalanced
1S = 10-12unbalanced
1NT = 13-15 unbalanced
2C = Wonder bid in Clubs (take out of clubs (10-14 hcp) or weak 2 in clubs)
2D = Wonder bid in Diamonds (take out (10-14 hcp) or weak 2 in diamonds)
2H = Wonder bid in Hearts (take out of hearts (10-14 hcp) or weak 2 in hearts)
2S = Wonder bid Spades (take out of spades (10-14 hcp) or weak 2 in spades)
2NT = 5/5 any 2 suits
3C = 6+ Hearts and 5+ minor
3D = Hearts or Clubs (Pre-empt)
3H = Spades or Diamonds (pre-empt)
3S = 6+ Spades and 5+ minor
3NT = 6/5 in majors
4C = Transfer to Hearts
4D = Transfer to Spades
4H = to play
4S = to play

The full system notes are at this link: http://www.vba.asn.a...GuidetoPUMA.pdf

The system is being played in a state selection event this weekend by one of the pairs from the Australian Schools Team that did reasonably well in the World Youth Teams Championships in Bangkok this year.

[the hog]

Hi Dave,
I would suggest that as their 1 level opening bids show point count unbalanced only that the higher you can get the auction over their higher 1 level bids, the better for you. They have to start investigation at a high level knowing nothing about suits.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

Light jump overcalls(some would say kamikaze style) and 'if'
partner is a passed hand 5+ card jump overcalls(with a 5-12/13 HCP range)

Play the Phantom Club system vs the 1C suit opening. Overcalls are natural and double is takeout of 'whatever' suit was 'opened' 'or' you hold a fairly strong hand type say 18/19+HCP.

Vs their 1NT opening, I would attempt my normal 1NT defense until it proved unsound. I would 'know' what suits I held and they would know nothing about their shape 'except' that they hold an unbalanced hand type. Seems to be an unfair advantage to my partnership, however, it is their choice of system.

Their higher level bids would seem to allow a takeout double vs their natural holding and pass and double/overcall without shortness.

They might want to consult a table of HCP holdings and redesign their bidding system. The odds against holding that '0-1 unbalanced 1C are something like several hundred to one odds against.

Defining that 6-37HCP 'balanced' range must also be a real delight. I also play a modified version of the Power system so I do not see any problem with defining a 11-16 balanced range, however, 6-37HCP still seems a bit much.

If they enjoy playing their system so much the better. I will await their winning in high level competition before I will study the system in detail.

I would use my normal style of bidding against this 'system. If partner has passed, jump bids show 5+ card suits and something like 5-12(13?) HCP. Let the opening pair sort out their fit and values.

I play a North American style of overcall/doubles. I tend to overcall with my long suits and only double with 'strong' hand types.

They have preempted themselves 'without' showing their shapes. It would seem that doubling for takeout would get penalties from either side of the table. I use most low level doubles as takeout anyway(including over my 1NT openings) and it seems to get me more penalties than playing normal penalty doubles.

Maybe they would be better off playing something in a forcing Pass type system.
The most common hands are in the range of 8-12HCP. Add a fert for the 0-7 range and Pass with 13+.

I did play a forcing Pass system several decades ago. Pass*-1C*(0-9HCP)-1D was used to show added values. We used a 1C fert showing 0-9HCP in all seats,
so 1C*-1NT showed 15-17HCP perhaps a record for signing off in 1NT opposite an 'opening' bid.

If this pair happened to get decent results playing their system, I would merely change to my normal defense against a 'good' forcing Pass pair. I would play the Phantom Club defense. You pretend that the other pair has opened 1C to your right 'even' if you are the dealer and you overcall as if they have opened with a 1C bid. A 1C opening is takeout of their Phantom Club opening.

Regards,
Robert

[nickf]

mrdct, on Oct 26 2006, 02:44 PM, said:

The full system notes are at this link: http://www.vba.asn.a...GuidetoPUMA.pdf

whoever devised this system is a deranged, evil, sadistic, masochistic, sad individual.

now if I can only work it how it works, I'd like to find someone with whom to play it.

nickf
sydney

[Impact]

Nick,

They are Juniors (perhaps embyonic is a better description!).
It doesn't work (generally - there is always a hand you can construct where it will) against thoughtful opponents.

Some people self-destruct against that with which they are unfamiliar - but as someone who has probably played more deviants of weird and wonderful than almost anyone else, this is inherently poor but very active even by Junior standards.

As has been noted elsewhere the ranges are too large for balanced hands - and they start too high on unbalanced hands in most situations with only marginal information about suits (per the negative inferences of failing to make a Wonder/myxo).

IF it is their hand they will be (at least) one level too high on most parscore hands (isn't that youth bridge?) - even assumingthey locate the best fit, while leaving themselves open to substantial penalties when it isn't their hand.

Quite frankly, variable vulnerability ferts and two way strong bids (strong or very weak) are miles superior both for definition of style for constructive bidding and for destructive bidding.

That pass is underutilised for such a low bid and will only show a positive in auctions where 3rd seat gets to operate but by contrast betryas enormous amounts of information to competent declareres; 1C is unplayable with the balanced range; the other auctions are self-pre-empting without the advantage of doing the damage to opponents......please play this against us!

[Echognome]

Not sure it's best or optimal, but if my partner and I faced this at the table, I imagine our agreements would be as follows:

Pass - treat as normal
1m - treat as short minor defense. Dbl = as if I opened 1 of that minor. Others = natural opening.
1♥/1♠/1NT - Use multi defense. Dbl = weakish NT or big hand. Bids = natural.

2 level - Double = penalty OR takeout. A bit of poker bridge here.

[hotShot]

Pass = 0-5 balanced
Well treat this like a normal pass, but remeber it is better defined.

1D = 2-6 unbalanced
1H = 7-9 unbalanced
1S = 10-12unbalanced

These bids are preemptive and mean mostly pass. So you should bid 1M as if they where opening bids. You should adjust your 2 suiter convention to show opening strength. This way you can bid a lot of 2 suiters without any problem.
Dbl should show opening strength and 5+ of the suit opps bid.
I guess your 2 level overcalls are solid.
1NT strong balanced

1C = 0-1 unbalanced or 6-37 balanced or 16+ unbalanced
Dbl should show opening strength and 5+C.
1D=>1S natural, almost opening strength (should be solid if it was a preempt.).
Your 2 suiter convention showing opening strength.
1NT strong balanced

1NT = 13-15 unbalanced
This is a little tricky, because opener is "strong" and unbalanced. But this opening is forcing and you could pass and wait as opps will try to play at least 2 in openers longest suit. But since you will usually be unbalanced too, you can play DONT or Cappelletti if you like. The risk that one of the opps share your long suit ist moderate.

[mycroft]

I *might* try to counter this with the classic Vic Mitchell "nuttin' defence". But I'd be going back to '60s "takeout" doubles - starting with a double on pretty much any 16+.

I'd probably preempt when obvious (a little aggressive, maybe), double with big hands, and play everything straight-up natural (including cuebids). "You're trying to confuse me, I'm not going to let you. I'm going to double when you get too high, and use your opening range to help me when I declare."

I don't have any experience with Wonder/Myxo bids except after a strong Club, so "use your normal defence".

Michael.

[hrothgar]

mrdct, on Oct 26 2006, 07:44 AM, said:

The full system notes are at this link: http://www.vba.asn.a...GuidetoPUMA.pdf

The system is being played in a state selection event this weekend by one of the pairs from the Australian Schools Team that did reasonably well in the World Youth Teams Championships in Bangkok this year.

Hi Dave

The very first thing that I'd do is hammer them for their pityful efforts at disclosure. I'm all more allowing people lots of lattitude in choosing their preferred methods. However, if folks are going to play some outlandish, they have an ethical responsibility to provide their opponents with useful information about what they are playing.

This is one of my real pet peeves. Practicing poor disclosure gives the reactionaries lots of ammunition to use against anyone playing something out of the ordinary. I looked through the "Complete Guide to PUMA". I still have no idea what hand types are excluded from the 1♦/1♥ openings.

Given enough time, I might be able to reverse engineer some useful information from the rest of the opening structure. If you look at the 1♠ and 1N opening bids, these bids deny:

Single suited hands with 10-14 HCP
Three suited hands with 10-14 HCP

Accordingly, these bids promise 2 suiters with no known anchor suits. (I suspect that the 1♦ openings does as well since it uses the same type of response strcutre)

It shouldn't be necessary to jump through hoops like this.

I haven't played any serious bridge in Australia, however, I'd be surprised if this document cuts the mustard for a serious event. A discussion with either the team in question or the sponsoring authorities might be in order. Personally, I think that the best way to teach them a useful lesson is if their pet methods were thrown out the day of the event.

Here are my thoughts:

Pass: Ignore this, use your own preferred opening structure

1♣:

Three level overs calls: Preemptive, showing known 5-5 patterns
Two level overcalls as if they opened a strong NT
One level overcalls as if they opened a weak NT

1♦/1♥/1♠/1N

3 level bids = single suited patterns, natural, invitational
2 level = 5-5 patterns with known suts
1N = 2 level preempt in any suit
Double = Values, balanced

Treat the wonder bids as if they are single suited openings (they usually are)
Natural intermeidate 2s can be very effective. (If the system is ever going to gain on the basis of merit, it will do so here) Spend a lot of time making sure you and partner are on the same page.

[hrothgar]

Never heard what happened with the PUMA match...

[helene_t]

This sounds like a rather ineffective system. Maybe the best defense is an ultra-conservative style - just let the PUMists mess up the auction when the board belongs to them.