[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

(2♦)* - 4♥ - (Dbl)** - Pass
(4♠) - Dbl - (Pass) - ?

---

*Multi
**Pass/Correct

1) What is your call now?

2) Do you believe if partner had passed instead of doubled, would it have been forcing?

[pclayton]

If I had a void spade, I'd think this x was penalty. But holding xxx, it seems pard has something else in mind.

I'll bid 5♥.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Oct 30 2006, 05:09 PM, said:

penalty? The opps effectively opened 2S and raised to 4S. Partner showed a very good hand with hearts. He can't have a "penalty" X in the sense of a trump stack, even if we're void. X to me says "this is our hand, we might make 4H and if you pass with nothing we will have hope of beating them." ....

Really?

Wouldn't it be 'convenient' to have a penalty double if I held: AQTx, AKTxxxx, x, A? You wouldn't bid 4♥? You wouldn't double 4♠? C'mon....

If I had a spade void, thats exactly the kind of hand I would expect.

[whereagles]

What does pard have? Simple: strong hand with hearts.

What do I bid? Probably 5♥. I don't think pard is gonna be able to conjure 4 tricks if his top hearts get ruffed 2nd round (or even 1st!).

[pclayton]

Matt gave me the original hand, and dummy actually held a long club suit and 3 spades. So we all did well by pulling to 5♥.

This is a strange situation. Pard has advertised a long heart suit and now doubles. Is it "takeout", "penalty" or "do the right thing"?

If I did hold some spade stack as overcaller, I would hate to be beholdent on partner to make a responsive double to collect our penalty. Otherwise, LHO will be 'accepting' our transfer quite often with little often than 3 spades and a some shape.

I also don't think there's any hard and fast rules in these situations. If pressed, I wouldsay that the double is more 'do the right thing'.

I realize that 4th chair could have the spade stack; whereby Justin's double on shortness would be valuable. However, does it really make sense for the doubler to have some vague 0=6-3-4; especially over a multi? Does it make sense for a takeout double to be 0=7=3=3?

Personally, I'd rather trash the responsive double in this sequence.

[hatchett]

I think double shows an offensive hand that wants to bid 5♥, say a 0742 shape but using double for this sort of hand caters to partner having a hand that wants to defend 4♠.
I would bid 5♥ on this hand

[Echognome]

Ok. As Phil says, the actual hand was:

♠x ♥AKQxxxx ♦AKT ♣Qx

Dummy held the freakish hand:

♠QJx ♥x ♦x ♣AKJTxxxx

Partner passed and declarer made 11 tricks.

Of course, if my minors had been reversed, defending would have been best.

I felt that I had a good 4♥ bid and wanted to express to partner that I was bidding 4♥ to make, not to preempt. I didn't that there was a forcing pass, so felt this was the only way to express I had a good 4♥ bid. Of course, bidding 4♥ vulnerable should already express a good hand, so not sure if my hand had enough extras to warrant the bidding.

At the other table the auction went: (2♠) - Dbl - (5♣) - P; (P) - 5♥ - All Pass So if I passed 4♠ we were still losing on the board as it happened.

One thing my partner mentioned was his failure to XX the double of 4♥. What should that show? I personally think it should show some general values. But, I'm not sure how much it should show and whether his failure to XX should keep me from doubling. All subtle points. I also felt that bidding 5♥ unilaterally wasn't right in case partner had some spade values, short hearts and nowhere to go.

[FrancesHinden]

I play the double by a 4H bidder in any of these auctions as 'action' : I would like to bid again, but I'm doubling in case you'd rather defend. Tends to imply a void in their suit, if feasible, or anywhere simply extra values.

On the given hand I would hold my nose and bid 5H.

On the hand you overcalled 4H, I have to admit I wouldn't have done because I think the hand is too good (too likely to play in 4H+2) but having done so, the double is descriptive.

[mikeh]

I am late to the thread, so have seen the hand, but, before I did, I read the exchange between Phil and Justin: I am 100% on Justin's side... but with AQ10x AK10xxxx x A, wild horses couldn't get me to overcall 4♥. I'd rather overcall 6♥ than 4... if I am going to mastermind, I'll shoot for a big score. No, with that monster, I start with double.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Oct 31 2006, 03:09 AM, said:

x AKQxxxx AKx Kx is consistent with this bidding. In that case 5H and 4S could conceivably be makers.

Echognome, on Oct 31 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

The actual hand was:
♠x ♥AKQxxxx ♦AKT ♣Qx

Good job J.

Seriously, I just don't see Phil's hand that jumps to 4H over 2D AND has a penalty double of 4S. If you plan to push them to 4SX, this just might not work as partner may compete to 5H over LHO's 4S bid. Also, I don't see what it has to do with 'responsive double'. 4H bidder's double is extras, his partner's double is penalties.

Arend

P.S.: I think double as pass/correct at the 4-level opposite a multi is strange. Sometimes you have a penalty double, and you know partner's suit anyway.

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on Oct 31 2006, 02:09 AM, said:

x AKQxxxx AKx Kx is consistent with this bidding.

Not in my opinion. That's waaay too good for a 4H overcall. Do you expect partner to bid on with xxx xxx Qxx Axxx?

[FrancesHinden]

Quote

If I double and it goes say... 3H p 3S and I now bid 4H partner has no idea what I have.

I generally don't believe in double-then-bid showing a single suiter and prefer showing various strains... but not on this auction. It comes back to your defence to a multi. I play double shows a minimum balanced hand or a strong hand. If I double then double I have a strong balanced-ish hand; if I double then bid a suit I have an Acol 2 or equivalent - just this hand (perfect!).

You are generally safer doubling first over a multi, because LHO is wildly unlikely to have a hand that can pre-empt in spades, as he doesn't have heart support. Most people play 2D x 3S as pass-or-correct; so you only get pre-empted if LHO has a long spade suit of their own (which is basically impossible when you have long hearts unless RHO has psyched). So a strong major single-suiter can afford to double over a multi first, because it's pretty confident it'll be able to show it's hand on the next round without being pre-empted.

I don't think this is the same as 2S x 3S P P 4H which I agree should be more flexible.

[joshs]

There are two distinct schools of thought about what 4H bid shows.

School A: 4H shows a playing strength hand. To show a really good hand you x first

School B: X then bid (over pre-empts) is always a flexible hand. With Strong 1 Suiters you jump. With Super Strong 1 suiters you jump higher. With the strong playing strength hand that lacks high cards you underbid slightly. The auction almost never dies out

I am firmly in the B camp. For me, 4H shows an acol 2 bid (possibly 1 trick lighter than a GFing hand) since you had a 3H jump available for a 16-18 hand with a good suit (basically a hand worth 18-21ish). The subsequent x is "penalty oriented" and says that you have good defense for the previous bid (So it was not 8 solid and a side AQ, but probably a legitamate 19+ HCP hand). Its not an order to pass.

Now over multi 2D you might be able to x and then jump next to show a strong 1 suiter, but then again if it goes 2D-x-3S(p/c)-P-P-? you no longer have a jump available....

Having said all that, its unclear what to bid over the x here. The Pass or Correct x at this high a level was such an unusual treatment that I suspect they might have screwed it up. If I trust my opps, I am certainly bidding 5H.

[FrancesHinden]

joshs, on Nov 1 2006, 06:53 PM, said:

Now over multi 2D you might be able to x and then jump next to show a strong 1 suiter, but then again if it goes 2D-x-3S(p/c)-P-P-? you no longer have a jump available....

I'm firmly in your camp B EXCEPT for over a multi holding a strong single-suited major hand.

Because after a multi it's extraordinarily rare that you will get pre-empted.

You are, say, 1732. Your RHO has a spade pre-empt. Your LHO may have good support for spades, but he can't have much in the way of hearts. How likely is 3S (p/c) over your double? A hand that wants to play in 3S only, but is prepared to play in 4H if his partner has a weak two in hearts?

[joshs]

You are correct that its rare in the case of a multi, but its not impossible and you are totally stuck when it does happen. You also might have only a strong 6 card suit, and responder can have 3=4 in the majors at least some of the time in that case. Although perhaps over a P/C 3S bid you shouldn't be bidding 4H that often.

Note: Americans and Eurpopeans have a completely difference experience about the multi being raised as a pre-empt, since in the US most people play the multi as only weak hands, which allows for more raises. (If you have 3424 and a 2 count, playing the US way you would bid 3H over 2D, but in the european way you only bid 2H since you suspect partner might have a strong balanced hand and don't want partner bidding 3N over 3H).

In any case, I generally prefer simple agreements based on philosophical bidding principles so as to not have a different agreement depending on each possible meaning the opps bids has. But I do understand that there are some diferences between multi and a 2S pre-empt, the biggest being that you have a jump to 3H available.

[cherdano]

joshs, on Nov 1 2006, 10:33 PM, said:

Note: Americans and Eurpopeans have a completely difference experience about the multi being raised as a pre-empt, since in the US most people play the multi as only weak hands, which allows for more raises. (If you have 3424 and a 2 count, playing the US way you would bid 3H over 2D, but in the european way you only bid 2H since you suspect partner might have a strong balanced hand and don't want partner bidding 3N over 3H).

I think the main difference between the European expert's and the American expert's experience regarding multi is that the European experience is on average 50 times as big.
And in fact this explains the difference in opinion in this thread much better, as Frances is willing to adopt a different style for multi, whereas the Americans just use the general understandings over a preempt.

Anyway, after 2D-(X), I doubt many could be stopped from preempting out of fear partner has a strong balanced hand, so your point seems moot.

Arend