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New suit forcing by opener... and XYZ conv.

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Posted 2003-December-08, 19:28

XYZ Convention Revisited: Why it is needed especially for people playing new suit by opener forcing.

Many people play new minor forcing, some enlightened people play two way minor checkback after 1any-1any-1NT, where 2C is game invitational hands and 2D game forcing hands.

But a small, but growing group of people are beginning to play XYZ convention. This is particularly useful if your openers 1 of a new suit is forcing. So how does this work? There are many flavors of xyz, and many different agreements, but here is how I play it: If my partner and I have had three bids (including negative dbls) and the bidding is still at the one level, then 2C and 2D are just like the two way checkback even if the last bid was not 1NT. For instance, consider these auctions:

1C-(P)-1D-(P); 1H-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(P)-1D-(1H); DBL-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(P)-1S-(P);1NT-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(P)-1S-(P);1NT-(X) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1D-(1H)-X-(P); 1S-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(1D)-X-(1H); 1S-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1H-(P)-1S-(P); 1NT-(P)- - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention

The way I play xyz, there are three artificial bids,
2C – ask partner to bid 2D and is either game try or signoff in diamonds
2D – absolute game force
2NT – ask partner to bid 3C, either to signoff in clubs or to show some specific one suiter weaker game tries or solid suit game force.

This has some advantages when not used, imagine you play new suit by opener as forcing. What do you think these bids mean (no opponent bidding)?

1C-1H; 1S-2S ? If you were forced to bid as responder, this 2S bid says, ok, you forced me to bid, so I did. Don’t get excited I have “dirt”. With a spade fit and any serious game interest you would have bid 2C followed by 2S or 3S depending upon the seriousness of the intent. This bid is KEY for people playing 1S as one round force.

1C-1H; 1S-2NT; 3C-3H - - Shows a six card suit with two of top three honors, nothing else of value
1C-1H; 1S-2NT; 3C-3NT - - shows solid seven card suit
1C-1H; 1S-2NT; 3C-3S, This has to show six hearts, four spades, game force (maybe 6-5)

In general, when xyz is played, over 2C opener MUST bid 2D. However, if you start playing opener’s first rebid as 100% 1 round force, he might have a hand too good to risk a pass of 2D. So if he bids something other than 2D over 2C (or other than 3C over 2NT), he conveys a monster hand. This turns out to be very useful information for auctions even when responder wasn’t trying to sign off as now slam becomes much easier to bid.

If you can bring yourself after hearing you partner open 1C and rebid 1H bid 1D then 2D with the following hand, you are ready to try XYZ convention…

S-x H-QT98 D-AQJTxx C-Ax

(of course, maybe 1H is the correct initial response).

Ben
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Posted 2003-December-09, 07:20

Quote

XYZ Convention Revisited: Why it is needed especially for people playing new suit by opener forcing.

Many people play new minor forcing, some enlightened people play two way minor checkback after 1any-1any-1NT, where 2C is game invitational hands and 2D game forcing hands.

But a small, but growing group of people are beginning to play XYZ convention. This is particularly useful if your openers 1 of a new suit is forcing. So how does this work? There are many flavors of xyz, and many different agreements, but here is how I play it: If my partner and I have had three bids (including negative dbls) and the bidding is still at the one level, then 2C and 2D are just like the two way checkback even if the last bid was not 1NT. For instance, consider these auctions:

1C-(P)-1D-(P); 1H-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(P)-1D-(1H); DBL-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(P)-1S-(P);1NT-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(P)-1S-(P);1NT-(X) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1D-(1H)-X-(P); 1S-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1C-(1D)-X-(1H); 1S-(P) - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention
1H-(P)-1S-(P); 1NT-(P)- - 2C/2D <<-- xyz convention

The way I play xyz, there are three artificial bids,
2C ?ask partner to bid 2D and is either game try or signoff in diamonds
2D ?absolute game force
2NT ?ask partner to bid 3C, either to signoff in clubs or to show some specific one suiter weaker game tries or solid suit game force.

This has some advantages when not used, imagine you play new suit by opener as forcing. What do you think these bids mean (no opponent bidding)?

1C-1H; 1S-2S ? If you were forced to bid as responder, this 2S bid says, ok, you forced me to bid, so I did. Don&#25264; get excited I have &#25593;irt? With a spade fit and any serious game interest you would have bid 2C followed by 2S or 3S depending upon the seriousness of the intent. This bid is KEY for people playing 1S as one round force.

1C-1H; 1S-2NT; 3C-3H - - Shows a six card suit with two of top three honors, nothing else of value
1C-1H; 1S-2NT; 3C-3NT - - shows solid seven card suit
1C-1H; 1S-2NT; 3C-3S, This has to show six hearts, four spades, game force (maybe 6-5)

In general, when xyz is played, over 2C opener MUST bid 2D. However, if you start playing opener&#25263; first rebid as 100% 1 round force, he might have a hand too good to risk a pass of 2D. So if he bids something other than 2D over 2C (or other than 3C over 2NT), he conveys a monster hand. This turns out to be very useful information for auctions even when responder wasn&#25264; trying to sign off as now slam becomes much easier to bid.

If you can bring yourself after hearing you partner open 1C and rebid 1H bid 1D then 2D with the following hand, you are ready to try XYZ convention?
S-x H-QT98 D-AQJTxx C-Ax

(of course, maybe 1H is the correct initial response).

Ben


Ben, this looks like an extensoin of the two way checkback, which applies only when opener rebid 1N. Here opener may rebid new suit or the opening suit. right?
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Posted 2003-December-09, 07:39

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Ben, this looks like an extensoin of the two way checkback, which applies only when opener rebid 1N. Here opener may rebid new suit or the opening suit. right?


This is exactly the two way checkback as after opener 1NT rebid. The only difference is opener didn't have to bid 1NT. As long as the bidding is still at the one level, and there has been three BIDS (dbl included as a bid), and the bidding is at 1NT or below.

This of course makes a several weak sounding auctions forcing (at least one round)...

1C 1H
1S 2C (2C forces opener to bid 2D)

1D 1H
1S 2D (2D is game force)

1C 1D
1H 2D (2D is game force)

Ben
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Posted 2003-December-09, 15:20

Hi Ben!
I like this way, as I posted in BBO forum long time ago. As you know I even like idea of xy or how anybody want to name direct check from opener to first response. Say 1CL-1SP, 2DI to be artifical like new minor forcing and strong. Same reason as you like 1SP-2CL response as relay. Instead of choose between lies is better to have same artifical bid. We play now xyz convention, how about xy ;D? I promisse to not use it before you have said "yes" B). I have no fear about conventions - uncle Bill was my p several years and we change systems and conventions like shirts ;). By the way if 2NT is transfer for CL, then direct jump to 3CL is inv or gf like other 3 level bids?
There is only one thing against conventions I have - they must be remembered. Only way I know - they must be similar, like xyz and 2 way check back, even it may cost some perfection. This is more important for conventions which are rare, like with very strong hands. There you must use VERY simple conventions, because normal people can remeber principle or something that are often used (NTC, hehe).
Misho
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Posted 2003-December-09, 15:46

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Hi Ben!
Say 1CL-1SP, 2DI to be artifical like new minor forcing and strong. Same reason as you like 1SP-2CL response as relay. Insted of choose between lies is better to have same artifical bid. We play now xyz convention, how about xy ;D? I promisse to not use it before you have said "yes" B).


Misho. I must be getting old and forgetful. I thought we long agreed to any new suit by opener as one round force. We began the premise with the auction 1C-1H-1S as forcing, so open doesn't have to jump to 2S (or 2NT). And after I accepted that, we added any new suit by opener as one round force. I also thought we were playing 1-XYZ (it is the Z+1 bid that we are actually talking about now) as forcing. x (opener), y (responder), z (opener). Where Z is forcing at any level if new suit, but if at one level, then the artificial 2C, 2D and 3C bids come into play.

And yes, A jump to 3C over 1any is game force, and shows good shape, generally 5-5 or better.

Ben
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Posted 2003-December-09, 15:57

Hi Ben!
You are young and you memory is better than several lazy young men from my club B).
Question: if new suit from opener is rf, is any jump new suit show 3 fit or natural reverses must be used in your opinion?
Misho
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Posted 2003-December-12, 18:05

Hi Ben!


Quote

XYZ Convention Revisited: Why it is needed especially for people playing new suit by opener forcing.

After 1x-1y-1z:

The way I play xyz, there are three artificial bids,
2C – ask partner to bid 2D and is either game try or signoff in diamonds
2D – absolute game force
2NT – ask partner to bid 3C, either to signoff in clubs or to show some specific one suiter weaker game tries or solid suit game force.


This all sounds very useful, and thanks for your explanations.

Having thought about this a little while, there is one thing that keeps confusing me, and that is the 2C bid. Let me try to explain:

The reason that New-minor-forcing or 4ths-suit-forcing work so well is IMHO the following: Openers hand is already pretty well described shape-wise (ok, not so much in strength). Responder needs little more information to determine the right strain, and it's therefor natural to give him an asking bid to find out this information.

Your treatment of 2C, forcing opener to rebid 2D, instead forces responder to make a statement. This runs counter to my intuitions of captaincy in this situation.

Let me give a concrete example: The auction is 1C-1H-1S. How does responder invite with, say, 3-5-3-2 and worries about a diamond stopper?

How about giving up the possibility of signing off in 2D, and instead making 2C purely invitational? You could sign-off in 3D via 2NT instead. I understand it's great for slam investigation when opener does not rebid 2D, but that does sound more like a luxury to me since the invitational limits responders hand reasonably well, and openenr should be able to decide whether he should try for slam.

Thanks a lot!
Arend
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Posted 2003-December-12, 23:06

Hi Arend,

If you like, you can certainly change the response schedule to this convention. I found it first on Steven Levy's notes on what pro's play. And since run across different flavors of it in a lot of places.

Do a google on "two way new minor forcing" and you will find a host of other flavors of this xyz convention. The one thing that is consistent between them is that 2C is a transfer to 2D (this over 1NT rebids by opener is part of BBO advance btw).

I freely changed some of the other bids that most people use and believe if you are more comfortable with a different treatment, go ahead and play that.

I will address you problem auction for you..

1C-1H-1S- when responder is 3-5-3-2. The xyz auction would be....

1C - 1H
1S - 2C *2C forces 2D as signoff or game invite
2D - 2H *2D is doing as told, 2H is game interest

If opener passes, you are probably ok. If he bids notrump your diamond worries are pretty much over. So far this has worked for me.

Ben
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