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Fourth Suit Predicament

#1 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 17:59

Scoring: XIMP

1♠ - 2♥
3♣ - 3♦
4♣ - ?


Opponents are silent throughout. Partner opens 1♠ and the bidding proceeds as above. What is your call now?
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#2 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 18:24

5C is enough, in spite of the nice hand.

It looks like we're stiff in each other's major suits.

Peter
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#3 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 18:28

I assume 3♣ denies a dead minimum?

I'd try 6♣; just bidding what I think I can make.
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#4 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 18:39

pclayton, on Oct 29 2006, 12:28 AM, said:

I assume 3♣ denies a dead minimum?

I'd try 6♣; just bidding what I think I can make.

We were playing Acol. So for all intents and purposes pretend it was SAYC. Then you can tell me how much 3♣ shows. :(
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#5 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 18:59

4D rkc for clubs, not natural. :(

I expect partner to have more than xxxxx in clubs.
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#6 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 19:10

"Then you can tell me how much 3♣ shows"

I assume it shows 5-5, any strength.

Peter
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#7 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-October-28, 19:32

I would bid 4N keycard for clubs. 7 is in the picture... partner hasn't limited his hand yet and a leap to 6C might trap him. 3C was game forcing opposite potentially 10(9) points, so it certainly shows some extras.
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#8 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 20:05

pbleighton, on Oct 29 2006, 03:10 AM, said:

"Then you can tell me how much 3♣ shows"

I assume it shows 5-5, any strength.

Peter

Even if he has a dead miniminum, like KQxxx x xx KQxxx, slam has play. Since he can still have AKQxx x xx KQJxx, where 7 is good and he can't bid over 5♣, I think it is clear that 5♣ is an underbid.

Arend
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#9 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 20:47

If you were playing "Acol", 3C shows a better than minimum hand. This hand has huge potential, and I am not discounting a grand. 4NT KC in C at this stage.
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#10 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 22:48

In SAYC 3♣ shows more than a min and is GF and 4♣ rather than trying for 3NT surely sures at least 5-5 and is slam oriented. The responding hand is therefore a monster and, to me, the only question is whether we play a small or grand slam so I ask for ket cards right now. If PD responds with both keys and the Q I'm asking for K's with 5NT to try for a grand.

As usual when a minor suit is trumps, especially clubs, this hand shows why 4♦ Kickback is superior to 4NT RKC.

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..
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#11 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2006-October-28, 23:37

4NT as RCK for clubs as well. But if pd does not understand 4NT, I would bid 6C.
Senshu
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#12 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2006-October-29, 04:51

I would bid 4D, cue bid for clubs. I have no desire to play it as RKCB.
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#13 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2006-October-29, 05:14

FrancesHinden, on Oct 29 2006, 10:51 AM, said:

I would bid 4D, cue bid for clubs. I have no desire to play it as RKCB.

Is it clear that 4♦ agrees clubs? Or do you have to jump to 4♦ to show a massive red two-suiter?
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#14 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2006-October-29, 06:24

even worse: are you sure 4NT here is RKCB for clubs???
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#15 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2006-October-29, 12:08

Echognome, on Oct 29 2006, 06:14 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 29 2006, 10:51 AM, said:

I would bid 4D, cue bid for clubs.  I have no desire to play it as RKCB.

Is it clear that 4♦ agrees clubs? Or do you have to jump to 4♦ to show a massive red two-suiter?

Yes I am sure 4d must be rkc for clubs.
I am glad everyone else knows 4nt is rkc for clubs and are not worried about confusion.

I guess 4nt as natural is out.....and everyone is clear on that?
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#16 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2006-October-29, 13:16

Well, I don't think so. 4NT might very well be natural.
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-October-29, 16:47

It is close between taking control via 4N (keycard) or cuebidding 4♦, intending to bid 5♥ over 4♠ and 6♣ over 5♣.

I prefer the latter approach because I expect that partner will be better positioned to make the small/grand decision after the cuebid approach than I will be after a keycard ask.

For those who like 4♦ as keycard, how do you bid with x QJxxx AKQx Axx?

Do you want to play 6♣ opposite AKQJx xx x KQJxx? You might well make it, but do you want to be there?
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#18 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-October-29, 22:03

I'm also in the 4♦ as Key Card for clubs school here. As for the possibility of losing two hearts when I have QJxxx, I discount that greatly when partner declines to make a delayed raise of hearts after 3♦. With AKQJx-xx-x-KQJxx, I'd expect 3♥, then 4♣ later if possible. Thus, 4♣ screams a heart stiff.
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#19 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2006-October-30, 03:21

mike777, on Oct 29 2006, 07:08 PM, said:

Echognome, on Oct 29 2006, 06:14 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 29 2006, 10:51 AM, said:

I would bid 4D, cue bid for clubs.  I have no desire to play it as RKCB.

Is it clear that 4♦ agrees clubs? Or do you have to jump to 4♦ to show a massive red two-suiter?

Yes I am sure 4d must be rkc for clubs.
I am glad everyone else knows 4nt is rkc for clubs and are not worried about confusion.

I guess 4nt as natural is out.....and everyone is clear on that?

I play 4NT as natural and discouraging here.
But only with partners with whom I've discussed this type of auction.
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#20 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2006-October-30, 03:28

Two comments:
- In Acol, 3♣ shows more (GF opposite 9+) than it would show in SAYC (GF opposite 11+)
- 4NT should be to play IMHO.

I just bid 6♣.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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