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(1♦) 2♣ (Pass) Pass
(Dbl) 2♦
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What does this bid mean? Strange bid in opponent's suit
#1
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Posted 2006-October-16, 07:06
#2
- The Abbess
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Posted 2006-October-16, 07:23
It isn't take-out of ♦, since such a hand would have doubled initially.
It isn't general strength, since such a hand could have dbld or overcalled 1NT initially, or redoubled now.
It isn't a maximum overcall with a 4-card major since such a hand could just bid the major.
Could it be Ax A xxx AKQxxxx, asking for a stop? Some would overcall 3♦ with that hand and some would double, but maybe it could be this hand.
Anyway, if I have to bid, I'll just bid my longest major and see what happens. So until further notice I treat it as "2♣ was a misclick". In real life, I'm sure my "table presence" (eufemism for UI) would tell me what it was :-)
It isn't general strength, since such a hand could have dbld or overcalled 1NT initially, or redoubled now.
It isn't a maximum overcall with a 4-card major since such a hand could just bid the major.
Could it be Ax A xxx AKQxxxx, asking for a stop? Some would overcall 3♦ with that hand and some would double, but maybe it could be this hand.
Anyway, if I have to bid, I'll just bid my longest major and see what happens. So until further notice I treat it as "2♣ was a misclick". In real life, I'm sure my "table presence" (eufemism for UI) would tell me what it was :-)
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#3
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Posted 2006-October-16, 08:31
This is a very rare bid. Out of 23 million auction in the largest online BrBr database, this auction occurred only 32 times. That is a frequency of 0.000001356. Clearly you will need meta rules to handle this situation. Maybe resort to natural or strong rebid in ones suit is best. Since REDBL could be used to show strong overcall in bid suit, my choice would be a very strong two suiter with both minors as a default agreement here. Not sure if it is best.
In fact, I post all 32 hands below. What you will see if that for strong players (those with the higher lehman ratings) they seemed to default to one of these two meanings. The strongest player (by lehman=65.69) meant it as a strong club rebid (and maybe to prevent a 2D bid). The second and third strongest (63.64 and 62.19) meant it as natural, second suit. The fourth strongest meant it as solid club suit rebid of clubs, as did a fair number of those in the high 50's. (I removed the players names, but left their Lehman, then sorted more or less by the lehman of the overcaller.
In fact, I post all 32 hands below. What you will see if that for strong players (those with the higher lehman ratings) they seemed to default to one of these two meanings. The strongest player (by lehman=65.69) meant it as a strong club rebid (and maybe to prevent a 2D bid). The second and third strongest (63.64 and 62.19) meant it as natural, second suit. The fourth strongest meant it as solid club suit rebid of clubs, as did a fair number of those in the high 50's. (I removed the players names, but left their Lehman, then sorted more or less by the lehman of the overcaller.
======================================== C:\Documents and Settings\immbfd\Desktop\yrd.txt Produced by BRidgeBRowser on 16-Oct-06 ======================================== IMP-25 North Dlr: North Board 321 S KJ Vul: None H QT62 West D AK7642 East S 8752 C 2 S Q93 H 97543 H AK8 D JT93 South D C S AT64 C KQJT965 H J D Q85 C A8743 West North East South 42.73 58.22 65.69 48.81 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D* Dbl 2H 3D 3H 5D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HA Result: Made 5 Score: 400 ------------------------------------------ IMP-8 North Dlr: North Board 1413 S K95 Vul: N-S H J8765 West D East S QT86 C T9832 S A43 H T94 H AK32 D 964 South D J8753 C J54 S J72 C Q H Q D AKQT2 C AK76 West North East South 49.82 63.21 57.92 63.64 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass Pass Dbl Pass 2S Pass Pass 3C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: S6 Result: Made 4 Score: 130 ------------------------------------------ MP-34 North Dlr: West Board 260 S KT85 Vul: Both H AKQ4 West D Q952 East S Q63 C 6 S 92 H JT6532 H D 64 South D AJT873 C 85 S AJ74 C AKJ97 H 987 D K C QT432 West North East South 53.24 59.61 62.19 54.75 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl* 2D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: H7 Result: Down 1 Score: 100 ------------------------------------------ IMP-22 North Dlr: West Board 1012 S JT7 Vul: Both H QT3 West D East S A84 C AKQJ954 S KQ965 H A985 H 7 D AKJT87 South D Q542 C S 32 C T32 H KJ642 D 963 C 876 West North East South 51.50 61.25 51.31 50.61 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S 3C 3D Pass 4D Pass 5D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CA Result: Made 7 Score: -640 ------------------------------------------ IMP-22 North Dlr: East Board 506 S AK2 Vul: Both H 762 West D 96 East S QJ65 C AKQJ4 S T874 H AK3 H JT4 D A872 South D KT53 C 96 S 93 C T7 H Q985 D QJ4 C 8532 West North East South 58.88 57.72 52.17 55.85 Pass Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D* Dbl 2NT Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HA Result: Made 3 ------------------------------------------ IMP-3 North Dlr: North Board 713 S 83 Vul: E-W H J97543 West D 5 East S QT975 C J985 S AK4 H Q82 H AKT6 D QJT South D 9873 C 62 S J62 C A4 H D AK642 C KQT73 West North East South 49.32 54.78 57.40 57.00 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S 3H Dbl 4C 4D 5C Dbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C2 Result: Down 2 Score: -300 ------------------------------------------ IMP-50 North Dlr: West Board 1500 S A8 Vul: N-S H A65 West D QJ East S KQJ C AKQT92 S T97642 H KQ87 H 4 D K854 South D 9632 C 84 S 53 C J7 H JT932 D AT7 C 653 West North East South 52.80 56.75 53.36 49.38 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S 3C Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass ------------------------------------------ MP-34 North Dlr: West Board 260 S KT85 Vul: Both H AKQ4 West D Q952 East S Q63 C 6 S 92 H JT6532 H D 64 South D AJT873 C 85 S AJ74 C AKJ97 H 987 D K C QT432 West North East South 49.14 39.89 56.39 56.16 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 2H Pass 3D Dbl 3H Pass Pass Dbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C6 Result: Down 3 Score: 800 ------------------------------------------ IMP-6 North Dlr: South Board 1427 S QT742 Vul: E-W H T82 West D T East S C T743 S K963 H AK4 H J976 D AKJ65 South D 874 C KQ852 S AJ85 C J9 H Q53 D Q932 C A6 West North East South 55.91 43.00 57.59 62.45 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S Pass Pass 3D 3S Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CJ Result: Down 1 Score: -50 ------------------------------------------ IMP-5 North Dlr: South Board 551 S K87 Vul: Both H KT5 West D Q East S AJ62 C AQJ965 S T93 H J8 H Q973 D A9543 South D KT2 C K4 S Q54 C T72 H A642 D J876 C 83 West North East South 58.65 54.88 43.45 59.99 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2H Pass Pass 3C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: DK Result: Down 1 Score: -100 ------------------------------------------ MP-36 North Dlr: West Board 592 S 2 Vul: E-W H West D J98642 East S J84 C AKQ876 S KQ75 H AJ87 H K954 D AK3 South D T5 C T42 S AT963 C 953 H QT632 D Q7 C J West North East South 54.64 54.47 50.05 54.74 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Dbl Pass 2NT 3C Dbl 3D Dbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: SK Result: Made 5 Score: 670 ------------------------------------------ IMP-27 North Dlr: South Board 227 S 8643 Vul: E-W H 9875 West D 8 East S 7 C J752 S AJT95 H JT H Q64 D KQT94 South D J62 C AQ864 S KQ2 C T3 H AK32 D A753 C K9 West North East South 54.10 45.32 50.05 47.58 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: D8 Result: Made 2 Score: -90 ------------------------------------------ IMP-18 North Dlr: South Board 355 S 96 Vul: E-W H 754 West D 852 East S A53 C JT654 S KQJT H KJ H Q832 D 3 South D J964 C AKQ8732 S 8742 C 9 H AT96 D AKQT7 C West North East South 54.06 59.19 53.86 59.82 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 3D Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: H7 Result: Made 3 Score: -600 ------------------------------------------ MP-38 North Dlr: South Board 851 S AT3 Vul: E-W H West D AKJ76 East S KQ8 C KQ653 S 642 H KQ2 H J9876 D QT542 South D 3 C 82 S J975 C JT97 H AT543 D 98 C A4 West North East South 62.95 53.77 54.80 52.68 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl* 2D Pass 2H Pass 3D Pass 4C Pass 5C Dbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: S4 Result: Down 1 Score: -100 ------------------------------------------ IMP-27 North Dlr: West Board 456 S A65 Vul: None H A6 West D 862 East S KQT4 C AKQ32 S J82 H J73 H Q8542 D AKQJT9 South D 7 C S 973 C T986 H KT9 D 543 C J754 West North East South 53.68 54.70 55.23 51.94 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2H 3C 3D Pass Pass 4C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: D7 Result: Down 2 Score: -100 ------------------------------------------ IMP-6 North Dlr: South Board 1427 S QT742 Vul: E-W H T82 West D T East S C T743 S K963 H AK4 H J976 D AKJ65 South D 874 C KQ852 S AJ85 C J9 H Q53 D Q932 C A6 West North East South 53.27 50.14 52.52 38.58 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S Pass Pass Dbl Pass 3C Pass 4C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: H2 Result: Made 4 Score: -130 ------------------------------------------ IMP-42 North Dlr: West Board 84 S QJT Vul: Both H West D K752 East S AK75 C AKQT63 S 832 H K943 H QJT72 D AQT South D J83 C J2 S 964 C 85 H A865 D 964 C 974 West North East South 48.79 53.45 49.99 55.70 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 3C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HQ Result: Made 3 Score: 110 ------------------------------------------ MP-34 North Dlr: West Board 260 S KT85 Vul: Both H AKQ4 West D Q952 East S Q63 C 6 S 92 H JT6532 H D 64 South D AJT873 C 85 S AJ74 C AKJ97 H 987 D K C QT432 West North East South 43.18 49.83 52.43 55.42 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Dbl 2H Dbl 3C Dbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: DK Result: Down 2 Score: 500 ------------------------------------------ MP-18 North Dlr: West Board 700 S JT73 Vul: N-S H AQ63 West D KQ6 East S 6542 C T4 S KQ H T8542 H J D 32 South D AJT9 C J5 S A98 C AKQ862 H K97 D 8754 C 973 West North East South 53.79 46.73 51.59 52.67 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 2H Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: D8 Result: Made 4 Score: -430 ------------------------------------------ IMP-5 North Dlr: South Board 991 S AJ83 Vul: N-S H K862 West D QT9 East S K974 C Q9 S H JT3 H AQ D 732 South D AKJ854 C 654 S QT652 C A8732 H 9754 D 6 C KJT West North East South 56.59 51.03 51.30 50.60 Pass Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S Pass Pass 3C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: D6 Result: Made 5 Score: -150 ------------------------------------------ MP-36 North Dlr: North Board 505 S QT986 Vul: E-W H KT7 West D J4 East S 74 C J65 S K32 H Q42 H J985 D AKT South D 62 C AKQ92 S AJ5 C T843 H A63 D Q98753 C 7 West North East South 49.60 55.18 51.11 57.55 Pass Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S 4C Pass 5C Dbl Rdbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: DJ Result: Down 2 Score: 1000 ------------------------------------------ MP-26 North Dlr: South Board 939 S AQJT Vul: None H KT76 West D J965 East S K973 C 4 S H Q942 H A85 D AT South D KQ743 C 972 S 86542 C AKQT3 H J3 D 82 C J865 West North East South 48.98 53.00 48.15 57.29 Pass Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 2H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C4 Result: Made 3 Score: -140 ------------------------------------------ IMP-11 North Dlr: North Board 285 S T7543 Vul: Both H QJ8 West D QJ43 East S AJ6 C 8 S Q9 H 9765 H AK32 D T92 South D AK865 C J97 S K82 C 42 H T4 D 7 C AKQT653 West North East South 39.86 49.28 42.83 47.84 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 2S Pass 3C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: H6 Result: Down 2 Score: -200 ------------------------------------------ MP-32 North Dlr: East Board 506 S Q987 Vul: Both H T9762 West D KQ3 East S JT654 C T S AK32 H 54 H AK83 D T92 South D 8 C A63 S C 8752 H QJ D AJ7654 C KQJ94 West North East South 47.31 45.24 43.50 47.45 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CT Result: Made 3 Score: -140 ------------------------------------------ MP-51 North Dlr: East Board 126 S J83 Vul: None H 9753 West D 983 East S T754 C Q93 S Q96 H AJT6 H KQ82 D 5 South D KJT7 C A752 S AK2 C KT H 4 D AQ642 C J864 West North East South 45.80 54.94 58.20 45.29 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CQ Result: Made 2 Score: -110 ------------------------------------------ IMP-43 North Dlr: South Board 975 S AT9 Vul: N-S H K82 West D 6 East S K63 C KQJ542 S J72 H AJT9 H 64 D AQ984 South D T3 C 7 S Q854 C AT9863 H Q753 D KJ752 C West North East South 47.55 44.23 50.82 54.00 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: H6 Result: Down 3 Score: -300 ------------------------------------------ IMP-45 North Dlr: West Board 688 S AQT8 Vul: E-W H KQ82 West D Q753 East S 642 C J S KJ9 H AJ95 H 64 D KJ92 South D AT86 C 63 S 753 C AK95 H T73 D 4 C QT8742 West North East South 52.60 53.34 42.98 59.66 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C4 Result: Down 1 Score: 100 ------------------------------------------ IMP-44 North Dlr: North Board 681 S Q32 Vul: E-W H KQ95 West D 85 East S K9 C Q654 S JT87 H J4 H T876 D KJ7643 South D 2 C AK2 S A654 C JT97 H A32 D AQT9 C 83 West North East South 33.61 62.68 50.93 48.92 Pass Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Dbl Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HK Result: Down 2 Score: 500 ------------------------------------------ IMP-14 North Dlr: East Board 258 S T72 Vul: N-S H Q5 West D K986 East S A964 C J652 S KJ83 H 97642 H AK83 D J South D 543 C A97 S Q5 C QT H JT D AQT72 C K843 West North East South 52.40 52.85 51.01 45.48 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 3H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C6 Result: Made 6 Score: -230 ------------------------------------------ MP-30 North Dlr: South Board 467 S AJ85 Vul: E-W H AQJ6 West D A832 East S T C T S KQ43 H T85 H 3 D QJT65 South D K74 C A842 S 9762 C KQJ76 H K9742 D 9 C 953 West North East South 52.43 64.01 47.67 51.11 Pass Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 3C Pass Pass 3H Pass Pass 3S Pass 4C Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: D9 Result: Down 2 Score: 200 ------------------------------------------ IMP-34 North Dlr: North Board 645 S Q75 Vul: N-S H T985 West D AK52 East S T642 C T8 S K983 H 7642 H KQJ3 D J3 South D Q964 C J52 S AJ C 4 H A D T87 C AKQ9763 West North East South 44.03 56.59 52.37 47.89 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D Pass 2NT Pass 3NT Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: HK Result: Made 7 Score: 720 ------------------------------------------ IMP-34 North Dlr: North Board 493 S 2 Vul: Both H 9863 West D QT97532 East S K98763 C 5 S AJ54 H 754 H AKT2 D South D KJ84 C J643 S QT C T H QJ D A6 C AKQ9872 West North East South 44.19 55.58 50.30 42.89 Pass 1D 2C Pass Pass Dbl 2D 2S Pass Pass 3C Pass Pass 3S Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: C5 Result: Made 6 Score: -230 ------------------------------------------
--Ben--
#4
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Posted 2006-October-16, 09:59
Hmm at least some of the strong players seem to conform to my interpretation. I'd say it's takeout of diamonds in a hand more suited to bidding clubs first. Typical might be 3316 shape.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#5 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-October-16, 11:43
I would take it as natural (5-6 in the minors or so).
#6
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Posted 2006-October-16, 11:43
awm, on Oct 16 2006, 10:59 AM, said:
Hmm at least some of the strong players seem to conform to my interpretation. I'd say it's takeout of diamonds in a hand more suited to bidding clubs first. Typical might be 3316 shape.
Hi,
with your 3316 hand I would either pass
or make redouble.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#7
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Posted 2006-October-16, 11:47
Hi,
it can be takeout, since he could have
bid X the round beore, it cant be a strong
bal. hand (with or ithout stopper)
since he would either have doubled or made
the NT overcall.
Whats left? Natural, ... if he really knows me,
he will know he will never sell me a natural
2-suiter in the minors.
Whats left is a misclick, and your guess is
as good as mine, which bid was the misclick.
If he is any good, he knows, he cant repair an error
made in the first round.
With kind regards
Marlowe
it can be takeout, since he could have
bid X the round beore, it cant be a strong
bal. hand (with or ithout stopper)
since he would either have doubled or made
the NT overcall.
Whats left? Natural, ... if he really knows me,
he will know he will never sell me a natural
2-suiter in the minors.
Whats left is a misclick, and your guess is
as good as mine, which bid was the misclick.
If he is any good, he knows, he cant repair an error
made in the first round.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#8
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Posted 2006-October-16, 12:06
Its natural; strong overcalls should redouble, not cue.
"Phil" on BBO
#9
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Posted 2006-October-16, 12:59
I play this auction as showing solid clubs, asking about diamond stops, but unsuitable for an immediate 3D overcall or take-out double. Unsuitability usually means that you can't underwrite 9 tricks if partner has only a diamond stop, but you would like a little extra elsewhere while being happy to play 3C.
May or may not be the best agreement, but at least I have the agreement!
My partnerships have some meta-rules, and one of them is you can't make a natural bid in RHO's suit except in some specific, defined auctions.
May or may not be the best agreement, but at least I have the agreement!
My partnerships have some meta-rules, and one of them is you can't make a natural bid in RHO's suit except in some specific, defined auctions.
#10
- Csaba the Hutt
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Posted 2006-October-17, 04:23
If no previous discussion, I'd think it's something like 6-5 in the minors-
note how opener didn't rebid but X'ed, his diamonds may well have 3 cards. If opener is 4432 (or close to that if they open with 1d with 4333 also if clubs are rubbish, of course why didn't opener pass then?), we have a legitimate search for a good minor fit.
edit: oops, i voted for something else cause i missed "natural"
note how opener didn't rebid but X'ed, his diamonds may well have 3 cards. If opener is 4432 (or close to that if they open with 1d with 4333 also if clubs are rubbish, of course why didn't opener pass then?), we have a legitimate search for a good minor fit.
edit: oops, i voted for something else cause i missed "natural"
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
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