[mike777]

Scoring: MP

(1D)=1S=(2H)=2S
(3C)=?

---

This hand caused a bit of a heated discussion with one partner late last night.
There are many issues on this one but I hope to focus on one. Should I downgrade my hand based on the 2H bid on my left? I am very unclear when one should downgrade a hand or not.

What is your bid?

[1eyedjack]

I am ambivalent about the Heart holding. Some play double of 2H by advancer as a sound raise in Spades, to distinguish from a "weak" 2S raise, and if you play that then I just bid 3S. But on the understanding that his only way to support Spades at the 2 level is via 2S he could have a bit.

Heart length reckons to be on my left, but most of opposing values reckon to be on my right. Tricky, tricky.

In the end I voted for 3H, which may elicit a helpful double on my left, which could warn me off the game, if I believe it.

Perhaps I should be more worried about whether partner's diamond values are going to get cut up, than whether my Heart King is working.

[P_Marlowe]

Dbl, Game try, may suggest defending,
and 3H may be better, I will see the result,
but I am for inviting.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hotShot]

Opener showed 12+ HCP, i hold 15 HCP, LHO should have 10+ HCP leaving a maximum of 3 HCP for partner.

What does partners 2♠ promise?

Of cause he should have 3♠, so the Q might drop, if it's not with him. The only usefull cards he could hold are:
♣K, ♥A, ♦A and ♠Q (not too helpfull though) and for game we need him to hold 2 of them. This is very unlikely, but we have a 9 card fit which means that opps will have a 8+ card fit too.
So we need to play 3♠, not going for game or even inviting to game.

[pbleighton]

3S, competitive. I downgrade, but even if I don't, game is against the odds, unless West is lying.

Peter

[mikeh]

Lots of meat on this bone.

If the opps are hyper-aggressive (my experience, unfortunately, is that there are many such players who feel perfectly entitled to withhold that information from you, which explains a lot of whatever success they have), then a game try is definitely in order, and I like 3♥. Even against jokers, I'd downgrade that ♥ holding pending word from partner.

Against solid citizens, I'd be a lot more worried about them reaching and making game than I would be about our missing a good, making 4♠.

I'd like to buy this in 3♠, and, if not, at this heat, I'd like to be defending 4minor rather than playing 4♠ x'd or defending 5 minor.

The best way to get to play 3♠ is probably pass (for now) but I just couldn't do it. In standard, LHO is committed to bid again and he might bid a non-forcing 3 red passed back to me. Then they may well think that they have each shown their hand and will pass my 3♠.

A direct 3♠ is all too likely to generate a 4minor on my right and now rho, especially with a stiff or void ♠ may bid 5.

And, finally, a 3♥ gametry may, as others have noted, get doubled, which would be useful information.

[cnszsun]

Even facing some minimum hands from partner, game still has good chance.
Like:♥Q+♣K; or ♦A; (i believe ♥A stilll has half odds onside)
Will your partner accept game try holding above hands?
So i will make a game try at least, more likely blast to game.

[mike777]

cnszsun, on Sep 19 2006, 10:24 PM, said:

Even facing some minimum hands from partner, game still has good chance.
Like:♥Q+♣K; or ♦A; (i believe ♥A stilll has half odds onside)
Will your partner accept game try holding above hands?
So i will make a game try at least, more likely blast to game.

So you just assume the opp bid vul on nothing or almost nothing?
2H shows nothing or almost nothing?
3c shows nothing or almost nothing?
these are serious questions.

[1eyedjack]

I have been burned too many times by partners who make a courtesy raise on nothing but the expected trump support. It shows IMO a lack of foresight about how the auction is likely to develop and the problems that partner is likely to face later in the auction. When there appear to be too many points in the pack I tend to believe partner rather than the oppo, given the need to make a choice.

[cnszsun]

mike777, on Sep 20 2006, 01:43 PM, said:

cnszsun, on Sep 19 2006, 10:24 PM, said:

Even facing some minimum hands from partner, game still has good chance.
Like:♥Q+♣K; or ♦A; (i believe ♥A stilll has half odds onside)
Will your partner accept game try holding above hands?
So i will make a game try at least, more likely blast to game.

So you just assume the opp bid vul on nothing or almost nothing?
2H shows nothing or almost nothing?
3c shows nothing or almost nothing?
these are serious questions.

If both opps have their bid, then your partner must bid 2♠ with ♠Qxx, and no values in side suit. Is this a logical assumption or who should we trust?

[whereagles]

I'm trusting opps on this one. Pard may have like

Qxx
xxxx
x
Jxxxx

Wouldn't you feel like volunteering a 2♠ here?

Anyway, I think opps can make 4♥/5m, so I'll just bid 4♠ now. I'm fine with getting doubled. I'm am NOT fine with them bidding 5m if given the chance, e.g. if I walk the dog with 3♠ and let LHO bid some 4m bid.

[bid_em_up]

Well, I look at it slightly differently and bid 4♠ now.

I expect 4H or 5m to be making. I have 8 playing tricks on my own and we're not taking more than 1S trick (if any). The heart A rates to be over me (but may not be), so we have 2, maybe 3 tricks on defense if we are lucky, only one if unlucky.

If partner is jerking me around and raising on Qxx and nothing, then 4H is making and 4S is -1 or 2. If partner has a hand that actually contains any values, I might just make this and at worst will be -1 (I think).

I'm not big on the idea of letting opps have another free round of bidding allowing them to share more info at this point and still being faced the decision of with what to do when it comes back to me on this holding.

I already know I am bidding 4S over 4H, so may as well do it now.

[1eyedjack]

whereagles, on Sep 20 2006, 11:21 AM, said:

I'm trusting opps on this one. Pard may have like

Qxx
xxxx
x
Jxxxx

Wouldn't you feel like volunteering a 2♠ here?

Yes. And I would expect him to reject my 3♥ game try and settle in 3♠, making. On a VERY good day you make 10 tricks, with ♥A onside and no adverse ruff.

I would have thought that the fact that 3♠ makes opposite such a hand justifies the game try. But I also sympathise with 4♠ as a game try.

[whereagles]

1eyedjack, on Sep 21 2006, 07:10 AM, said:

Yes. And I would expect him to reject my 3♥ game try and settle in 3♠, making. On a VERY good day you make 10 tricks, with ♥A onside and no adverse ruff.

But the point is not to make 4♠. Rather, it is to prevent opps from finding their cold 5♦

[HeartA]

My principle is that, if in doubt between game try and direct game, I would bid game. For this hand, 4S could be made or a good sacrifice. Of course, there are some combinations that both sides don't have a game.

[the hog]

Is the 2H bid forcing, or is it a negative free bid? I bid 4S. I can think of too many hands where the opps can make 4H, or alternatively where I can make 4S.
Agree with Whereagles reasoning.

[pclayton]

I kind of like 3N with this collection. If I buy it, 8 tricks is a cinch and I don't need much for #9. I'd push on to 4♠ if they keep bidding.

[HeartA]

3N is a good choice, except that if you buy 4S later, your LHO would not lead H(A or small) toward you.

[1eyedjack]

Is partner expected to pull 3N with no D guard, or am I missing something?

[mike777]

Thank you all for your thoughful comments. I found all of them interesting.