[mike777]

Scoring: MP

P=1S=(2H)=3D!
(4H)=5D=P=P
(5H)=??

---

One from last night.
3D=natural and nonforcing, often around 8-12 hcp and a decent suit

Your call please and your line of reasoning?

[arrows]

pass, nothing else to say

[bid_em_up]

Double.

Why? Because we have all the other suits covered, and can be fairly certain we have one other loser besides a heart. Where are they going to take 11 tricks? Lead trump.

If partners pass happened to be forcing, he can pull to 6D now. If partner doesnt have the hand we are expecting, he can still pull to 6D.

[awm]

Double.

It would be surprising if we could make 6♦. Partner made a non-forcing call, and I have a minimum (albeit a nice minimum) and only three-card support. Even if partner has the "perfect" cards (something like xx xx AKxxxx Axx) 6♦ is hardly cold. It would also surprise me if they can make 5♥, given my strength outside diamonds. I doubt this is even a forcing pass situation (not clear 5♦ was bid to make, is it?) so double seems clearcut.

[HeartA]

double. And agree with the above analysis.

[inquiry]

I join the doublers

[P_Marlowe]

I voted for dbl, but Pass is close as well,
it wont matter a lot, since the board was
decided in the bidding.
Pass is certainly nonforcing, but I have 2
dev. tricks and partner will have at least
one, so it should go down probably -2.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

I double. Where is there source of tricks, especially when pard has short spades?

I suppose pard's pass could be played as forcing, but I wouldn't read it that way.

[mike777]

What pass by pard is forcing that you guys are worried about?
With most game force hands partner would cuebid or x over 2H. Partner would never pass 2h with a game force hand unless he has a ton of hearts and wants to double the opp., not possible on this auction.

If I pass over 5H, I assume that is not forcing. This is undiscussed but nonforcing is my strong guess.

btw any hands assumed for these bids, thanks. I found this a tough one, even after hours of thought.

[whereagles]

This board rates to be ours. Therefore, at matchpoints I must dbl.

[arrows]

People just can't help but bidding the same thing twice, and even more times.

Does this hand have noticeably more defensive value than a normal opening hand?

[P_Marlowe]

arrows, on Sep 13 2006, 04:57 PM, said:

People just can't help but bidding the same thing twice, and even more times.

Does this hand have noticeably more defensive value than a normal opening hand?

No, so opener passes.
Responder: Does I hold more def. than
an avg. inv. hand? No, he passes as well.
In the end they play 5H without a double.

In the given seq. it does not matter who
makes the double, but dont blame partner
if he pases as well.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

arrows, on Sep 13 2006, 09:57 PM, said:

People just can't help but bidding the same thing twice, and even more times.

Does this hand have noticeably more defensive value than a normal opening hand?

Bidding is not just showing your hand. It is also taking decisions when pard has shown enough of his hand. I think this is one such case: you sure don't want to bid 5♥ and you know the hand is yours. You must take charge and double. Passing would be encouraging for pard to bid 5♥.

[SoTired]

Dbl - They are unlikely making and you don't want partner to bid 6D.

This is not a "Don't bid the same values twice" situation. You have bid game with a known majority of strength. A pass here could be taken as a Forcing Pass. With only one ace and just enough to bid game, you don't want to suggest that you can tolerate a 6D bid from partner. You know exactly what to do, so do it.

Could the opps have a perfect fit and make 5H? Yes. But if you always set them when you dbl, then you are not dbling enuf.

Could partner have the perfect hand and make 6D? Yes. But the odds don't favor that. Don't play partner for the Perfect Hand.

[mikeh]

whereagles, on Sep 14 2006, 03:59 AM, said:

arrows, on Sep 13 2006, 09:57 PM, said:

People just can't help but bidding the same thing twice, and even more times.

Does this hand have noticeably more defensive value than a normal opening hand?

Bidding is not just showing your hand. It is also taking decisions when pard has shown enough of his hand. I think this is one such case: you sure don't want to bid 5♥ and you know the hand is yours. You must take charge and double. Passing would be encouraging for pard to bid 5♥.

I think you meant '6♦', not 5♥.

However, pass does not, logically, invite partner to bid 6♦. This is not a forcing pass situation, and I know of no partnership that defines forcing passes in such a manner as to make this one such a pass.

Neither N nor S has suggested that they had a big hand, and were bidding 5♦ confident of a plus. North expressly rejected holding a big hand by the negative free bid approach: presumably S was permitted to pass 3♦ had it come back to him... thus 3♦ did not establish any force whatsoever.... and it is illogical to allow the opps' bid over 3♦ to change the implied degree (lack) of force created by the call.

5♦ did not announce ownership of the hand: it may well have been a save or an attempt to push the opps to the 5-level, expecting to have a better chance of beating an 11 trick contract than a 10 trick one.

So the pass/double decision should not be impacted by any worry that a pass would fetch a 6♦ call from partner... any partner who bids 6♦ should be taken out and summarily executed...... unless it makes, of course

Ok, so do we defend undoubled? It is matchpoints and it may be that we have already put ourselves into a no-lose position PROVIDED we don't do anything disastrous.

Consider the auction at other tables: few pairs play NFB, so unless partner has a super-maximum, we may not have found our ♦ fit.

Perhaps partner could have negative doubled, and perhaps we would have bid 4N over 4♥ and thus found our way to 5♦, but, in a typical matchpoint field (we are not, I asume, speaking of the finals of the Blue Ribbon Pairs etc) it must be realistic to assume that a good chunk of the field will be defending 4♥ undoubled.

So if we beat 5♥, no matter whether it is by one trick or two, we rate to score about 65% if we do not double and, say, 90% if we do.

But if 5♥ makes, undoubled, we rate to score about 50% or so (losing to those who are allowed to save in 5♦ but winning against those who double 4 or 5♥) while if we double, we rate to score about 5%.

This suggests that we should double only when we feel that we are at least 2-1 favourites to beat this contract... I think that we are definitely likely to beat this contract.. the question is do we jeopardize a reasonable score looking for a great score?

This decision is so close that I would be influenced by how late in the game this was, how big the field was, etc. If early in the game, or late with us needing some good boards, or if it were a big field (a regional pairs game, for example, where big scores are needed to win) I would double.

If this were late in a club or sectional pairs game, where we were doing okay, I'd pass and take my expected 65% rather than risk a disaster.

[whereagles]

Yeah, I meant 6♦.

However, I do not think that scoring -450 will be an ok score for our side. Which is why at matchpoints I double. How often are opps going to make 5♥ with a likely 18-19 hcp? Not too often. And if they do, we're fixed no matter what.

Note that if other tables missed out on the diamond fit, they'll be letting opps score -420 -450 in 4♥.

[jdeegan]

arrows, on Sep 13 2006, 04:57 PM, said:

People just can't help but bidding the same thing twice, and even more times.

Does this hand have noticeably more defensive value than a normal opening hand?

Double. I don't understand the use of the cliche of 'bidding values again' about this auction. Partner has the mystery hand and is in the place to make the final decision, so I want to set him up as best I can. Given the earlier auction, my hand is more defensive than offensive (only three diamonds, two and a half quick tricks and no heart void).

Most of the time partner will pass the double, but if he bids 6♦ it should be right. The opponents will make 5♥ doubled once in a while, esp. if they have a diamond void, but this may not cost many MP's as compared to defending 5♥ making undoubled.

Passing would be inviting partner to take a 6♦ save (the prospects for making 6♦ are miniscule just looking at my hand). Defending 5♥ undoubled down one or two would be a MP disaster.

[arrows]

First of all, the fact is 3D was not forcing, thus pass 5H can NOT be a forcing pass.
It's quite possible partner bid 3D with only an excellent suit but nothing else, the
chance of beating 5H if far from "sure".

Most importantly, passing intendes to involve partner's judgement. he might have a
distributional hand favors bid on if you pass, or he might have lots of defensive value,
or he might as well pass 5H. you cannot tell what he had by a 3D bid.

You have told the whole story and already stretched by 5D.
Double is an insult to pd's intelligence.

[whereagles]

Arrows, you are right that you should not bid your values twice... BUT... there are occasions when pass is NOT the bid to say "I have nothing more to add".

Canonical example: say you bid a slam of 6♠ and opps save in 7♣. The bid "pass" now shows a void club and a willingness to play 7♠, whereas "double" means "I have nothing more to add" and encourages pard to leave it at that.

As you can see, to double 5♥ may very well mean "nothing to add". What we are debating here is, in a way, whether this is one such situation or not.

I hope this helped clearing it up.