[mikestar]

inquiry, on Sep 11 2006, 01:19 PM, said:

...  For those of you playing 3C as GAME FORCE, do you play 4th suit forcing (or even new minor forcing or Xzy)?...

Fourth suit forcing is such an obvious convention the some English writers have asserted that FSF is the natural meaning of a fourth suit bid.

I've played 3♣ as all three of the natural alternatives.

(1) Playing FSF Bill Root style (responder's second round jumps GF, FSF is mostly for invitational hands), 3♣ is 5-5 GF, 2♣ followed by 3♣ is 5-5 invitational.

(2) Playing the more usual FSF style where FSF is always GF or mostly GF, 3♣ is 5-5
invitational, 2♣ followed by 3♣ is 5-5 GF.

(3) Playing XYZ or other forms of two-way checkback, weak 4-6 is reasonable, as both the GF and invitational alternatives can go through 2♣/2♦.

When the fourth suit is diamonds, the same applies except in XYZ: there the weak 4-6 hand passes opener's mandatory 2♦ rebid over 2♣.

[kenberg]

The BBO FD card has the sequence as undefined. I have been thinking a bit. I don't doubt I am going down a well trod path, but here is what I now think:

Invitational: The problem here is that often, after 1D-1H-1S, with me 5-5 in hearts and clubs, my thoughts will be: "If pard has three hearts I would like to invite game. If he does not, I want to get out as cheaply as possible." Thus I don't really know if I want to invite at the three level.
A solution: Although I mostly like fsf to game, it seems there could be some specific exceptions such as 1D-1H-1S-2C-2D-2N. This would sens the message: I was planning on inviting if I found three hearts in your hand, but without that I doubt the hands fit well enough to play game unless you have a little extra.


This would eliminate the need for 3C as invitational 5-5. I think it could be played as showing invitational 6-4, with a good six card club suit. The message would be: I have some decent values and a pretty good suit, good enough so I can probably make 3C without a good fit from you. Feel free to leave me here, or bid on if you have the stuff to do so.

These meanings would cater to hands that come up with some sort of frequency.

I don't know xyz (actually I don't know quite a few things). Probably the above is part of some system somewhere.

Ken

[the hog]

I play this as 5/5 weak. Please pick a suit.

[AthosINT]

Hello everyone, i had a discussion once, it was between these 2 sequences :

1C 1H
1S 2D
2N 3D

what could be the difference with

1C 1H
1S 3D


Btw, I do not know how you see 4th forcing in the US, but in France it is not game forcing.

Anyway, everyone in france plays the second auction showing game forcing strength and the 2 suits shown are of good quality.
For instance :
AKJxx
x
AQxxx
xx

would be treated as in auction 2.

Auction 1 was weird. Why bidding 2d then 3d. It must be natural. But you could not bid 3D before. the only reason is that the hand is big but the D quality is not.
Like this :
AKJxx
A
Jxxxx
Ax

The idea is to warn partner about losers there before going to far.

[whereagles]

AthosINT, on Sep 12 2006, 09:12 AM, said:

Btw, I do not know how you see 4th forcing in the US, but in France it is not game forcing.

Most french textbooks treat 4th suit as game-forcing if it's a reverse by responder, e.g.

1♦ 1♥
2♠ 2♣ <--- not GF

1♥ 2♣
2♦ 2♠ <-- GF: opener would have to support clubs at the 3 level