[grbradt]

---

I am starting thru Thurston's 25 Steps to Learning 2/1. Under the topic "raising partners heart suit" pg 54/55 this hand is given. You are opener and auction starts 1S-p-2H -p.
He briefly discusses principle of fast arrival, and says to bid 4H with "4-card support, a minimum opener and no side suit shortness". Ok, but why is this restricted to 4-card support? He gives the above hand with 3-card support, and bids 3H here. Isn't 3H encouraging? Why don't you bid 4H with this hand?
Thanks!

[HeartA]

Yes, 3H is encouraging, better than 4H. Good H spots, 2 side Aces and Q in your suit, a promising hand. 3H leaves more spaces for partnership to explore slam (before game). If pd bids 3S/4C, I would cue-bid 4D. If pd cue-bid 4D, I would bid 4H (no club control).

[kenrexford]

The example you give and book seem to be unfortunate. I suppose the thought must be that you bid 3♥ with only three-card support, expecting to be able to bid 3NT after 3♠ as natural and an offer to stop here. I do not know. You are right to be confused. That does make no sense.

Keep learning 2/1 GF, though. When you get it, really understand it, you will be amazed at how good it is. It is not the simple version that is so amazing. When you get into the tough stuff, the "expert" 2/1 GF, you will eventually (1) be glad you stuck to it, and (2) laugh at the silliness of what you first 2/1 GF mentors and books told you.

[Winstonm]

The one thing you will find is no real consensus on many things in 2/1. There are those who would argue that 4H in this auction should only be done as a "picture" bid to emphasize great hearts, like AKxx or KQJx. Others might say this jump denies a control in the unbid suits, something like AKJxxx, KJxx, xx, xx. Some use fast arrival to show a minimum opening.

Truth is it can be whatever you and your partner decide is important within your system of bidding.

[HeartA]

Winstonm, on Sep 8 2006, 08:52 PM, said:

The one thing you will find is no real consensus on many things in 2/1. There are those who would argue that 4H in this auction should only be done as a "picture" bid to emphasize great hearts, like AKxx or KQJx. Others might say this jump denies a control in the unbid suits, something like AKJxxx, KJxx, xx, xx. Some use fast arrival to show a minimum opening.

Truth is it can be whatever you and your partner decide is important within your system of bidding.

Well, fast arrival is accepted by most expert players, I believe. After 2/1 game forcing response and agreed trump, to jump to game surely shows a minimum hand.

[whereagles]

It may be the consensus, but in some situations fast arrival is a over-simplistic approach that is technically WRONG. This is one.

[kenrexford]

I happen to be in the Picture Jump school. Here's why, oriented toward the new person to 2/1 GF.

Back in the day, 2/1 GF introduced a concept of "fast arrival," where a jump to game denied "extra's" and, conversely, slower bidding suggested more stuff. It helps with the 16-opposite-16 slam, where each partner has something extra, but not quite enough to pursue slam alone.

Additions to theory, however, have added two new tools, a "Serious" 3NT and a "Last Train to Clarksville" cuebid.

This is extremely simplistic, and actually wrong, but the way to sort of "get" the concept is to look at these calls from a HCP standpoint. In reality, the idea is to facilitate good cuebidding, to find the fit of cards between two hands. But, just to get a rudimentary understanding...

Imagine 1♠-P-2♥-P-3♥ as the start. Opener has, say, 12-20 HCP's. Responder might be able to bid "Serious 3NT" with, say, 18 HCP's, needing a mere 14-point top-end minimum for slam. That's the "serious" 3NT cuebid. (Again, I know that this is wrong, but it gets the idea started.)

With, say, 16, Responder needs 16. So, Responder might cuebid something. Had Responder held a minimum 13-count, he'd sign off at 4♥, expecting Opener to move with 19-20.

So, a cuebid might show maybe 15-17 HCP's. If Opener has 17-18, he can move toward slam, working opposite 15 (the "low end" for a cuebid). With 15, needing the "high end" of 15-17, Opener can bid the cuebid right below game (4♦), asking for help.

Once you get this basic idea, you learn that there is much more to it. But, you also realize that there is a lot of ability to work out the finer points between 3♥ and 4♥. The jump, then, merely crowds the bidding. When we "preempt" ourselves, we want very good definition to that call.

When you couple good cuebidding technique, with a Serious 3NT (of non-serious if of that school) and a Last Train to Clarksville cuebid, fast arrival thought falls to the side, and Picture Cuebids emerge as a better alternative.

For the original poster, learn the basics of 2/1 first, with fast arrival, but keep in mind that there is a "better way." Once you get that old style, move to the modern approach. It works wonders and will amaze you.

[temp3600]

grbradt, on Sep 8 2006, 06:05 PM, said:

Isn't 3H encouraging?

No, 3H is ambiguous. It can be minimum or have extras, 3 or 4 trumps : a lot of hands go through 3H.

4H on the other hand is quite precise. And it should be, since the bid eats up a lot of bidding space. Using 4H to show a minimum hand with 4-trump support and no singleton or void is a very good idea : first, with 4-card support the strain is clear. And second, since the jump takes a lot of space, you want to assign to it a type of hand with which the bidding will often rest in 4H. A minimum hand with 4-card support and 2-2 in the minors is exactly that : responder needs a huge hand to try for slam.

3H says "i have at least 3-card support", but also "i could not bid any of the other bids showing heart support". In a way, it is a negative bid : it means "i could not use the grand slam force (5NT), nor blackwood (4NT) nor splinter (4C, 4D), nor, ...". That's why it is ambiguous : it regroups all the hands with heart-support that could not be shown at this stage in a more precise way. And it makes sense to associate the lowest fit-showing bid, 3H, to this meaning.

[inquiry]

As you learn 2/1, start slow, which might include the principle of fast arrival. Eventually, you will want to enhance your verision. Fred wrote a great series of articles called improving 2/1. In it he talked about some problems, one was PROBLEM 2: The (misguided) principle of fast arrival ... where he went on to discuss picture bids and serious 3NT. Take a read at:

http://www.imp-bridg...cles/2over1.htm

[HeartA]

kenrexford, on Sep 8 2006, 11:07 PM, said:

I happen to be in the Picture Jump school. Here's why, oriented toward the new person to 2/1 GF.

Back in the day, 2/1 GF introduced a concept of "fast arrival," where a jump to game denied "extra's" and, conversely, slower bidding suggested more stuff. It helps with the 16-opposite-16 slam, where each partner has something extra, but not quite enough to pursue slam alone.

Additions to theory, however, have added two new tools, a "Serious" 3NT and a "Last Train to Clarksville" cuebid.

This is extremely simplistic, and actually wrong, but the way to sort of "get" the concept is to look at these calls from a HCP standpoint. In reality, the idea is to facilitate good cuebidding, to find the fit of cards between two hands. But, just to get a rudimentary understanding...

Imagine 1♠-P-2♥-P-3♥ as the start. Opener has, say, 12-20 HCP's. Responder might be able to bid "Serious 3NT" with, say, 18 HCP's, needing a mere 14-point top-end minimum for slam. That's the "serious" 3NT cuebid. (Again, I know that this is wrong, but it gets the idea started.)

With, say, 16, Responder needs 16. So, Responder might cuebid something. Had Responder held a minimum 13-count, he'd sign off at 4♥, expecting Opener to move with 19-20.

So, a cuebid might show maybe 15-17 HCP's. If Opener has 17-18, he can move toward slam, working opposite 15 (the "low end" for a cuebid). With 15, needing the "high end" of 15-17, Opener can bid the cuebid right below game (4♦), asking for help.

Once you get this basic idea, you learn that there is much more to it. But, you also realize that there is a lot of ability to work out the finer points between 3♥ and 4♥. The jump, then, merely crowds the bidding. When we "preempt" ourselves, we want very good definition to that call.

When you couple good cuebidding technique, with a Serious 3NT (of non-serious if of that school) and a Last Train to Clarksville cuebid, fast arrival thought falls to the side, and Picture Cuebids emerge as a better alternative.

For the original poster, learn the basics of 2/1 first, with fast arrival, but keep in mind that there is a "better way." Once you get that old style, move to the modern approach. It works wonders and will amaze you.

This method strictly based on HCP is ill advised. If responder has
♠KJx, ♥AQxxx, ♦xxx, ♣Axx, or
♠Kx, ♥Qxxxxx, , Kx, ♣AQx
or other "minimum" hands, slam would be very good.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would nearly always bid 3H, giving partner
room, if he wants to explore for slam.
With the given hand, it does not even matter
if you play, that 3H is encouraging,
since you have Aces, and strong trump
support.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[grbradt]

Thanks to all who replied, that was great input. My example hand was probably not the best way to illustrate my question, I should have just asked about a 5332 hand, minimum, no slam interest. If the author is implying that you bid 3H here using fast arrival, it must be because the strain is not certain (which seems strange given the 5-3 fit). Otherwise he is describing a picture bid, and is misleading (to me add least), given that it is described under the rubric of "fast arrival".