[mindofmike]

Scoring: MP

---

Opponents are silent throughout; some of our relevant conventions are inverted minors and RKCB.

Our sequence was a bit oversimplified:
1D-1S-2C-6D; partner decided to just shoot it.

Any thoughts?

Mike

[mike777]

I would just assume bidding a slam is ok even at MP so I would just make a game force raise in D and etc.......I do not think Kxxx of spades is really that great of a suit to introduce.

I would think about 6nt at MP if that is possible but just ignore finding 6s and never bid the suit.


1d=3c=game force in D for me (crisscross) but I assume you may have some other bid?

In this case bidding the grand should not be that tough.

[kenrexford]

I have a set of "pet" agreements. Using these, the auction is rather easy:

1♦ (whatever you want this to mean, 3+, 4+, or 4+ unbalanced)
2♣ (GF, no five-card major)
2♠ (both minors)
3♦ (diamonds agreed -- slammish)
3♥ (heart cue -- Ace, King, or stiff)
3♠ (spade cue)
4♣ (two of the top three clubs)
4♥ (RKCB)
5♣ (two -- no queen)

At this point, Responder can count four clubs, five diamonds, two spades, and a heart. That's 12 tricks. The heart control, if the King, is the 13th trick for 7NT; if a stiff, that's 13 at 7♦. The spade Queen might even be plausible.

5♥ (any unshown Kings?)
5NT (the heart control was the king)

That makes 7NT easy.

If the heart was stiff:

5♥ (any unshown Kings?)
6♦ (no -- I assume you know about the club situation)
6♠ (spade Queen???)

This gets you to the right grand.

If partner thinks he must show the club King again:

5♥ (any Kings?)
6♣ (this one, but not spades)
6♠ (well, how about the spade Queen?)

[inquiry]

This hand calls out for a game forcing 2♦ raise. My bidding would be...

1D - 2D
2H - 2S
3D - 3H
3S - 4C
4H - 4N
5H - 6C
7C - 7D
Pass

Explaination...

2D = GF
2H = unbalanced hand, singleton or void somewhere
2S = where is the singleton or void?
3D = short Spade
3H = cue
3S = cue, void or ace (3S over 2D would be singleton but not singleton ace)
4C = cue (1st or second control)
4H = cue (1st or second -- responder knows it is the King)
4NT = RKCB
5H = two no Diamond queen (also, not six diamonds, or would show DQ anyway)
6C = specific asking bid
7C = KQ of clubs
7D = to play.. partner has singleton SA, heart K, five diamonds to A, and KQ of clubs. PArtner can be 4H, 3C or 3H, 4C. Can count 5D, 2S, 2H, 3C. Can't be sure about the fourth club or fourth heart.

[uday]

I like to blast, myself ; but when i miss I don't like to worry about how to get to the best spot via a slower auction. I think when you blast you don't mind missing once in a while, bec. you are picking up something else once in a while.

I dont see the need to blast here.

I think 1S is normal: what if P has

AQJx xx Axxx Kxx

or some such, where you'd like to find the 44 spade fit for the grand?

After the 2C rebid, FSF (2H) seems normal , and 2N (?) by opener
then responder gets to bid 3D, GF, support.

This is when auctions tend to get murky for me, so not clear how to proceed. Dont know what 4D would mean instead of 3D (maybe strong slam signal in D? that would be nice!)

[kenrexford]

A large number of problems arise from the raise-diamonds-or-bid-major issue. This is the reason for the 2♣ artificial GF bid. Opener bids one-under a four-card major, allowing a GF auction with a major agreement at the two-level. Without a major, Opener bids 2♠ (minors), 2NT (bal.), or 3♣ (long diamonds) most of the time. Thus, bidding 1♠ on a four-piece and GF is unnecessary. A 1♠ response, if GF, shows 5+ in the suit. Thus, 1D-P-1♠-P-1NT-P-3NT shows a five-piece spade suit.

Had 7♠ been the right contract, Responder will have again bid 2♣, but Opener, with four spades, will bid 2♥, allowing spades to be agreed in a GF auction at 2♠ from Responder. Now, a world of cues are available.

[inquiry]

I am not sure standard is to bid a shorter suit when holding a longer suit and game forcing/slam invite values. However, if you wanted to start with 1S as responder, you could do it. I would guess

1D - 1S
2C - 2H*
3N - 4D
4H - 4N
5H - 6C
7C - 7N
Pass

2H = 4th suit forcing
3N = heart stopper, extra values
4D = set trumps, GF
4H = cue
4N = RKCB
5H = 2 no diamond queen
6C = specific asking bid
7C = KQ of clubs
7NT = 5D, 2S, 4C, 2H.

[Codo]

1 ♦ 1 ♠
2 ♣ 2 ♥
3 ♥ 4 ♦
4NT 5 ♣
5 ♥ 5 ♠
6 ♣ 7 ♦

1 Spade is a must, as PD may well have a 4432 hand, where Spades play much better.
2 Heart is 4sf, 3 Heart shows extra strength and short spades.
4 Dia. askes for KCs in Diamonds, Opener shows 2 without the Queen
5 CLub askes for kings, 5 Heart shows the K of Heart, no King of Spades
5 Spades askes for extras: 6 CLub Yes, K of Clubs

I won´t find out about the Queen of CLubs, so 7 Diamond is the GS I would reach.

[EricK]

Ir would start
1♦ 1♠
2♣ 2♥ (FS GF)
2NT 3♦
3♥ (Cue bid)
........4♦ (RKCB a la Kantar)

From here, responder can find two Aces, ask for specific Kings find both of them and count 13 tricks (5♦ 2♠ 2♥ 2♣ and 2 ♣ ruffs) so can bid 7.

I can find 7NT though.

[mike777]

I find so many of these auctions silly...............


I hope i can see all the cards......

[HeartA]

1♦ - 2♦ (D slam was almost sure, I would ignore the possible S fit)
3♣ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♣
4♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4NT
5♥ - 5NT
7♦

3♣: natural or strength
3♥/...4♠: cue
4NT: RKC
5NT: King asking
7D: 2 side Kings

[mike777]

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

[HeartA]

mike777, on Sep 8 2006, 02:57 AM, said:

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

Talking to me?

If so, my 2D shows 11+ HCP, D fit, (usually) denies majors.

[Echognome]

kenrexford, on Sep 8 2006, 04:50 AM, said:

A large number of problems arise from the raise-diamonds-or-bid-major issue. This is the reason for the 2♣ artificial GF bid. Opener bids one-under a four-card major, allowing a GF auction with a major agreement at the two-level. Without a major, Opener bids 2♠ (minors), 2NT (bal.), or 3♣ (long diamonds) most of the time. Thus, bidding 1♠ on a four-piece and GF is unnecessary. A 1♠ response, if GF, shows 5+ in the suit. Thus, 1D-P-1♠-P-1NT-P-3NT shows a five-piece spade suit.

Had 7♠ been the right contract, Responder will have again bid 2♣, but Opener, with four spades, will bid 2♥, allowing spades to be agreed in a GF auction at 2♠ from Responder. Now, a world of cues are available.

The only thing I don't understand is why we are using pet agreements. I can say that I open this hand a strong club and relay to grand. This is in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion. The question is how you get there in standard methods. Maybe you can say, "This is how I would bid it using your methods, but if you are interested in some different methods I am happy to explain some to you."

[mike777]

HeartA, on Sep 8 2006, 03:00 AM, said:

mike777, on Sep 8 2006, 02:57 AM, said:

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

Talking to me?

If so, my 2D shows 11+ HCP, D fit, (usually) denies majors.

ok 2d shows 11+ or 30+? they are the same.

huge diff from 11-13 or 14+

[sceptic]

maybe I am really dumb, But why would the bidding not start

1 diamond 1 spade 3 club

then some number of diamonds or 3 hearts or what ever takes your fancy and why would you not get to 7Daiamonds minimum or 7NT from one side after bidding keycard of some sort, someone knows they have extra values

[whereagles]

There's not much to comment.. 6♦ was a KISS approach, probably motivated by personality or psychological reasons.

[inquiry]

mike777, on Sep 8 2006, 02:57 AM, said:

you seem to play 2d as unlimited....30+ hcp?

Talking to me? I play 2♦ as "virtually" absolute game force (quasi game force can come in effect on one auction.. quasi gane force is forcing only to 4♦, it is only limited on the bottom side, not the top. I use 1♦-3♣ as a limit (non-game force) diamond raise.

[kenrexford]

Echognome, on Sep 8 2006, 03:37 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Sep 8 2006, 04:50 AM, said:

A large number of problems arise from the raise-diamonds-or-bid-major issue.  This is the reason for the 2♣ artificial GF bid.  Opener bids one-under a four-card major, allowing a GF auction with a major agreement at the two-level.  Without a major, Opener bids 2♠ (minors), 2NT (bal.), or 3♣ (long diamonds) most of the time.  Thus, bidding 1♠ on a four-piece and GF is unnecessary.  A 1♠ response, if GF, shows 5+ in the suit.  Thus, 1D-P-1♠-P-1NT-P-3NT shows a five-piece spade suit.

Had 7♠ been the right contract, Responder will have again bid 2♣, but Opener, with four spades, will bid 2♥, allowing spades to be agreed in a GF auction at 2♠ from Responder.  Now, a world of cues are available.

The only thing I don't understand is why we are using pet agreements. I can say that I open this hand a strong club and relay to grand. This is in the SAYC and 2/1 discussion. The question is how you get there in standard methods. Maybe you can say, "This is how I would bid it using your methods, but if you are interested in some different methods I am happy to explain some to you."

If you notice in the original post, the penultimate question was, "any thoughts?"

Hence, it would be technically responsive to respond, "I like ice cream."

More on point, i am not sure why anyone would be opposed to a suggestion to cure a recurring problem as a response, with an auction that works better than any shown so far. Sure, a relay structure or a strong club structure might also work. But, for those who prefer a basically natural 2/1 approach, consideration of the Golady treatment may be worthwhile. Using a difficult hand, one that Golady is powerful in resolving, to suggest this treatment has potential to also be beneficial.

Suppose some posted this problem. "I have trouble finding 4-4 major fits after partner opens 1NT. If I bid one, we sometimes end up in 4-3 fits. If I have 4432 pattern as Responder, which major should I bid first? Any thoughts?"

Might you suggest playing Stayman, even if the agreement was "natural responses?"

[bid_em_up]

Personally, I consider North's hand to be ideal for a 2♦ bid immediately. Inverted minors really are meant to be used for investigating hands that can envision:

1) a minor suit slam opposite a minimum opening, 2) 3N or 3) 5 of a minor/4 major.

This hand certainly qualifies. (Note, I normally open 1D on 4+, 1C on 2+, making it known immediately that there is at least a 9 card diamond fit for those concerned about a 5-3 fit).

Taking this approach, I firmly believe that the correct approach is then to cuebid controls up the line for minor suit slam exploration or to determine if there is an unstopped suit that would rule 3N out as an option.

1D-2D- 2H-2S-? At this point, South can bid 2N (which promises a club stop but not necessarily control) or could simply bid 3C (control showing) which is what I would bid.

1D-2D-2H-2S-3C-3H-3S-4C-? At this point, South knows that North holds the spade A, the heart K, and the club A. All he really needs to know is how many of the top diamonds does North hold.

5N (grand slam force)-7D (2 of top 3)-?.

At either form of scoring, I would rest in 7D. While you are reasonably sure of 13 tricks in diamonds, (5 diamonds, 3 clubs, AK hearts, AK spades, and either a club ruff in dummy/4 club tricks, or some number of spade ruffs in hand), it is entirely possible that the 13th trick is available only via ruffs.

If playing in an MP tournament and pushing for top late in the session, I might risk 7N, but believe you will win the majority of MP's for simply being in the grand to begin with, so there is no real need to risk it.