[Mr. Dodgy]

Scoring: IMP

1♣-?

---

RHO announces "Full SAYC", Deals and Opens 1♣...what do YOU do with this hand?

What's your opinion on 3NT as 'Gambling'? The other option in this partnership is a natural 3♣ preempt (I can't pass because that shows 12+HCP...or can I?)


Regards,


Justin

[1eyedjack]

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

I can't pass because that shows 12+HCP

Eh? Shurely shome typo here. But I cannot work out what you really meant!

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Pass is an option and so is 3C, altough
for the later, I would prefer the vul. to
be slightly different (green vs. red).

So I Pass, intending to bid 2C the next
time, which should also be natural.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Mr. Dodgy]

1eyedjack, on Sep 9 2006, 03:48 AM, said:

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

I can't pass because that shows 12+HCP

Eh? Shurely shome typo here. But I cannot work out what you really meant!

no typo

[HeartA]

You can't pass? eh? What competitive bidding system are you playing? "weak overcall"? Even if you got 432, 432, 432, 5432, you can't pass?

[inquiry]

Pass

[SoTired]

Generally, when RHO opens your best suit you pass. If you have 15-18 balanced, you can overcall 1N. Or if you have another good suit, you can overcall that one.

On this hand, I would pass. You might bid a preemptive 3C, but with only 6 clubs, equal vul, an otherwise balanced hand, and RHO maybe having a real club suit, it is riskier than if RHO opened 1D. Over 3C, responder is likely making a negative dbl, which opener can pass. Your hand may only produce 6 tricks so you are down 500 and the opps may not even have a game.

If you pass and LHO declares in 3N, you can double for a club lead and take the 1st 6 tricks.

[Mr. Dodgy]

HeartA, on Sep 9 2006, 02:49 PM, said:

You can't pass? eh? What competitive bidding system are you playing? "weak overcall"? Even if you got 432, 432, 432, 5432, you can't pass?

Yes, we play a homegrown method over any 1♣ Opener, in which we have a bid with ANY 0-11 point hand, and pass with 12+.

But we've not defined 3NT, and I'm interested to know what y'all think of using it as Gambling.

[jillybean]

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 03:00 PM, said:

Yes, we play a homegrown method over any 1♣ Opener, in which we have a bid with ANY 0-11 point hand, and pass with 12+.

is that legal?

[Mr. Dodgy]

jillybean2, on Sep 9 2006, 05:11 PM, said:

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 03:00 PM, said:

Yes, we play a homegrown method over any 1♣ Opener, in which we have a bid with ANY 0-11 point hand, and pass with 12+.

is that legal?

You'd probably know about that better than I

It's legal in MY tourneys if you alert properly (I'd probably not try it in an ACBL tourney).

[SoTired]

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

HeartA, on Sep 9 2006, 02:49 PM, said:

You can't pass? eh?  What competitive bidding system are you playing? "weak overcall"? Even if you got 432, 432, 432, 5432, you can't pass?

Yes, we play a homegrown method over any 1♣ Opener, in which we have a bid with ANY 0-11 point hand, and pass with 12+.

But we've not defined 3NT, and I'm interested to know what y'all think of using it as Gambling.

100% illegal. This is a "mandatory psyche" system. Illegal at all levels of competition.

Plus very disruptive and unethical. And since I doubt you have a defense against your system, it is totally unfair to the opponents, too. Some might even call it a "cheating system."

Finally, it does not belong here in BIL.

[Mr. Dodgy]

SoTired, on Sep 9 2006, 11:29 PM, said:

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 05:00 PM, said:

HeartA, on Sep 9 2006, 02:49 PM, said:

You can't pass? eh?  What competitive bidding system are you playing? "weak overcall"? Even if you got 432, 432, 432, 5432, you can't pass?

Yes, we play a homegrown method over any 1♣ Opener, in which we have a bid with ANY 0-11 point hand, and pass with 12+.

But we've not defined 3NT, and I'm interested to know what y'all think of using it as Gambling.

100% illegal. This is a "mandatory psyche" system. Illegal at all levels of competition.

Plus very disruptive and unethical. And since I doubt you have a defense against your system, it is totally unfair to the opponents, too. Some might even call it a "cheating system."

Finally, it does not belong here in BIL.

There's no psyche to it. It's a conventional defence with quite well-defined meaning to each of the bids up to and including 3♠. And for what it's worth, I am obsessively ethical when it comes to alerts and disclosure.

[Stephen Tu]

I don't see how it could be 100% illegal. If they are using barred conventions or a bid that is "13 cards any shape" it would probably be illegal in most jurisdictions. But if all bids are simply natural, there's nothing any organization can really bar (except arguably the pass showing values, ironically). Now, personally I think this is a bit suicidal, forced to bid on 4333 7 counts consistently, but I for one would welcome the challenge to double & make it stick. Certainly it should require pre-alerts & full disclosure, which are often lacking among people doing homebrew stuff.

So it depends on jurisdiction, level of the competition, and exactly how the bids are defined. But I agree it's not for BIL, more for the non-natural systems section.

[Mr. Dodgy]

OK, maybe I posted this in the wrong place...my apologies. I did not post this with a discussion of my 1♣ defence intended, only the merits of 3NT in this situation, which might be considered regardless of the other methods employed.

I suspect it may be seriously flawed, especially against a Big Club, but lack the expert ability to assess it...hence B-I.

[1eyedjack]

You do not have enough Club length to take the bidding to 4C (which a gambling 3N will result in 11 times out of 10). I can live with a preemptive 3C.

Nothing in the International Laws prevents you from playing this defence. Whether it is prevented by the regulations delegated to the sponsoring organisation is entirely up to that organisation at its discretion. If you are running BBO tourneys you set the rules and as long as they do not conflict with the International Laws you have complete discretion to set them how you will. Hopefully there would be some disclosure of permitted methods in the tourney description.

[keylime]

I'd pass and hope they rebid 1NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 05:00 AM, said:

1eyedjack, on Sep 9 2006, 03:48 AM, said:

Mr. Dodgy, on Sep 9 2006, 09:34 AM, said:

I can't pass because that shows 12+HCP

Eh? Shurely shome typo here. But I cannot work out what you really meant!

no typo

Hi,

I think in this case you need to bid 3C.

I doubt, that anybody could convince
that it makes sense to bid with 0 points
with arbitary distr. against competent
oppoennts.
Of course I am hard to convince anyway,
even if th suggestion are a lot more sensible.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

The first thing I would do is to make a note to immediately stop playing a system that doesn't allow me to pass with this hand. Hopefully if I cannot pass with this hand then I can bid 2C natural. If I cannot pass with this hand and cannot bid 2C natural, I would bid 3C. If I cannot bid 3C natural I would feign a heart attack Maybe I wouldn't have to fake it.


Presumably it happens with some frequency that the opponents open a club and you have long clubs. So the real answer is that you should do whatever you have agreed to, and partner should alert it and explain it. Whether the system is allowed or not is for the folks running the show to decide. I prefer it not be alowed, but if it is then I would hope that a director would treat harshly any claim that you could not explain your agreements, or that you had none, when you hold the given hand and rho opens 1C. It's not some rare bird of a hand that no one could anticipate. Letting the meaning flow from a logical analysis of your system, when opponents are unfamiliar with your system, is not something I favor.

So: If I am to recommend a systemic solution for this hand in a system that forbids a pass, I recommend 2C.