[whereagles]

Hi all, you hold

RHO opens 4♠.

You are NV vs V. Do you..?
- Pass
- Dbl (take-out)
- 4NT (two-suiter)

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You can overcall 4NT showing a 2-suiter, but pard will probably play you for a better hand. Alternatively, you can pass or dbl for take-out. So, how do you judge the situation?

I'd also be interested to hear what your agreements are in this situation, and whether scoring and vulnerability change them.

[whereagles]

If you pull 5♦ to 5♥, pard will play you for something like a 15+ hand with at least 54 in ♥/♣ (either way), and no tolerance for diamonds.

Obviously, you should have the playing strength to cope with the 6-level, should pard be unable to play hearts. Thanks for bringing this up, since it might make a difference.

I inculded double because there's always the chance pard will pass, which is frequent at this high a level.

[Blofeld]

I pass. I have some sympathy for 4NT, but if partner has a good hand we'll probably end up going down in slam, while passing will get a bid from partner and then let us bid our hand. If partner has a bad hand, it's possible that 5round will be a good save, but it's also very possible that it won't be.

Vulnerability does point towards bidding, but I don't think it's enough.

[paulg]

I'd pass although a little nervous. Double does not seem a viable option and the problem with 4NT is that we will often play in hearts when I really want to play in clubs unless we have a 9-card heart fit.

Paul

[paulg]

sceptic, on Sep 5 2006, 01:52 PM, said:

another question please

if you x and pard bids 4NT do you then bid 4 clubs and does that show that you are two suited (clubs and hearts) as you never bid 4NT showing both minors?

An immediate 4NT overcall traditionally shows a 2-suited hand that may be both minors.

If you double and partner bids 4NT, this bid also shows two places to play. So you would bid the lowest suit that you would be happy for partner to pass. Hence there is an inference that you have support for a higher suit.

As a double is generally played as takeout/good values, the doubler is likely to have support for three suits (if traditional takeout shape) or, more likely, prefer two suits in a good hand (say, a strong notrump).

For example, if I had doubled with ♠xx ♥AKx ♦AKxx ♣KQxx, I would respond with 5♣.

p

[whereagles]

hmm.. yes, if it goes

(4♠) dbl (pass) 4NT

pard is showing 2 places to play. Doubler should now bid 3-card suits up the line, which in this case means bidding 5♣, and correcting a possible responder's 5♦ to 5♥.

[Free]

I double if partner is playing scrambing, otherwise I'll just pass.

[inquiry]

When your opponents open 4M vul versus you being not vul, they normally expect to make (or come dam close to it). You are playing with a 30 hcp deck if you can find a fit, and you have a fair share of the 30 (9) wiht good intermediates. I can not imagine myself passing or doubling with this hand. It cries out for a 4NT (two places to play) bid. If partner bids 5C, I pass, if he bids 5D I bid 5H.

[mike777]

Ben says it so well. 4NT at fav vul seems clear, if not this hand then what hand?

Wayne if pard bids 5D I bid 5H. Pard will expect me to have clubs and hearts. If pard bids 4nt I bid 5clubs.

[mikeh]

4N: maybe at matchpoints, I could be talked into passing, since maybe we have a plus on defence and a minus on offence... nah... I'd bid anyway. White v red, passing is for losers... sorry, but you pass on these hands and the opps own you forever. Bridge is not a game for people afraid to bid.

BTW, while this is not a great hand, it is within the range that I would expect a partner of mine to hold.... obviously, style counts.. and if partner expects you to be bidding to make, my advice is to change style or partner....

I'm not sure if I'd bid white v white, or red v red, and I wouldn't bid red v white, altho I have a sneaking admiration for those who do.

Double is impossible: you lack the defence: while double is usually (these days) played as takeout... most good players pass the double as advancer when they lack offensive values, so -990 is a real possibility here if you double. And if partner bids, he may/should/will place you with an entirely different set of values and get you to the wrong spot/level.

[hatchett]

Agree with Inquiry and Mikeh. 4NT is clear.

[the hog]

inquiry, on Sep 6 2006, 03:08 AM, said:

When your opponents open 4M vul versus you being not vul, they normally expect to make (or come dam close to it). You are playing with a 30 hcp deck if you can find a fit, and you have a fair share of the 30 (9) wiht good intermediates. I can not imagine myself passing or doubling with this hand. It cries out for a 4NT (two places to play) bid. If partner bids 5C, I pass, if he bids 5D I bid 5H.

Agree totally with Ben. Passing with this shape is really a bit too much.

[whereagles]

Thx all.

I think the most important point here is to discuss the objective of a 4NT two-suited overcall. At 'green' you might be tempted to use 4NT both with strong hands and hands geared towards a sacrifice. The price to pay is pard won't be playing you for solid values and you'll miss slams on occasion. At other vulnerabilities most 4NT overcalls are probably better played as strongish hands.

Obviously, this is something you should discuss with pard in a more serious partnership. There is actually a case for having 4NT depend on opps style. Not all people play that a 4M preempt at 'red' should show some defensive tricks. In that case you might want to play 4NT as constructive all the time.

Another consideration is if 4M is done 3rd seat. In this case 4NT can always be of the ambiguous variety (regardless of vulnerability) because pard is passed and won't have much to say except to pick a suit. Also, a 3rd seat 4M preempt might be made on a very wide range of hands, which is another reason for using the ambiguous 4NT.

As for the hands in this case, they were

Scoring: MP

East opens 4♠

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I was South and actually passed 4♠, though not because of technical reasons. I passed because pard is an overbidder, who will proper himself to slam at the slightest excuse.

5♥ is makeable, but it's highly unlikely you fish out the singleton ♣K. In practice we let them play 4♠ and set it by 1 for a decent score.