[sceptic]

what do you think of these bids please

How would you bid them?

do you think a club splinter by south is wrong?

three souths all bidding 3 different levels of spades why?

Also on the first example is this a benefit of 14 03 keycard responses to get further info at a lower level?

as I assume the others bid 03 14

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♦
 Pass  1♠    Pass  3♠
 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♣
 Pass  5♦    Pass  5♥
 Pass  6♠    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♦
 Pass  1♠    Pass  2♠
 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♦
 Pass  6♠    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♦
 Pass  1♠    Pass  4♠
 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♦
 Pass  6♠    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

[bid_em_up]

No, I dont think a club splinter is necessarily "wrong", although the hand is a little light for it.

The main advantage to 1430 is it allows for a trump Q ask of 5♦ after a 5♣ response, regardless of which major suit is trumps.

[pbleighton]

"No, I dont think a club splinter is necessarily "wrong", although the hand is a little light for it."

Agree.

I think the second sequence is pretty mainstream. 3S is plenty for the South rebid, and given a flat 15 opposite 3S North should have no interest in the grand.

Peter

[Winstonm]

A comment on the bidding shown in each example.

The 4NT bid in each case is awful - a bid of enthusiasm rather than thought - and a common error among inexperienced bidders. This is the reason I believe 4NT variations should be the last thing taught - learn how to cue bid first. To jump to 4N shows all the required controls are held in all the suits - in these cases North has no way of knowing if South can contol clubs - and even if he does with something like Kx, then the contract should be 6D by south to protect the king.

The splinter does solve this problem, and it is pretty much up to partnership to set a minimum for this action. For me, opener's splinter shows a hand good enough to force to game with an "Oh, by the way, I've got a singleton" thrown in. The mini for me would be an all Aces and Kings 17-count.

The hand is surely good enough for 3S, and a thoughtful auction might produce this result:

1D-1S
3S-4D
4H-5H
6S

Or something similar. Even in the given auctions, it is South who might use some form of Blackwood in this auction, as he knows the control situation:

1D-1S
3S-4D
4N-

But it can never be right for North to take over with a 4N bid without knowing if clubs are controlled.

[mike777]

1d=1s
3s=3nt(slam try)
4c=etc

Way too light for 4club or 4S response to 1s.
3nt here allows for the needed 4club cuebid...common
Why jump to 4nt with those lousy clubs? But I see it all the time....
I can only guess partner thinks you must have something in clubs for your jump to 3S I guess.
BTW 0314 not an issue with spades as trumps.

[blackshoe]

mike777, on Sep 2 2006, 06:21 PM, said:

BTW 0314 not an issue with spades as trumps.

No, it isn't.

IMO, 1430 solves a problem that's better solved with Kickback, since Kickback solves that problem and several others.

[AdiBichea]

Hi,
How about
1♦ - 1♠
2♠* - 3♣!(1)
3♥(2) - 3♠!(3)
4♣!(4) (CRITCAL BID to reach slam) - and now slam
finally 6♠


(1) (GF! Artifical bid! Ask part to show cuebids)
(2) ♥ cuebid, second or first control in ♥ suit
(3) next cuebid, part cannot pas because I bid (3♣! GF, part cannot pass until game is agreed)
(4) ♣ cue, first or second control in ♣ suit

* i see most of you bid 3♠ - WRONG!!!, this bid shows 17-19HCP.

I'll wait other opinion of my bidding auction. cya on bbo!

[paulg]

I think this is a hand that raises a number of questions (so ideal for posting).

South's rebid has a number of options. Firstly the hand only has 5 losers, so although it does not have 17-19 HCP it has the playing strength of this range, so I think 3♠ is the minimum response. If partner has strength in clubs you may reach a poor game/slam, but it is worth the risk in the long term.

If you accept that the hand is worth 3♠, then you may consider that it is worth highlighting the club shortage with 4♣. Of course, this forces you to game and you are a little light for this action, but it would help in finding any slam on the hand.

Many may argue that this is putting 'slam before game', but unless partner has a really weak hand he is never going to know whether to bid game or not opposite this hand. This is why many pairs play that a splinter, like 4♣, is made with hands like this and promises no significant extra values over a 3♠ response. You pay your money and make your choice!

It is generally considered poor bridge to use Blackwood without 1st- or 2nd-round control of all four suits. However I do have sympathy with these bidders after a 3♠/4♠ response as there are clearly few points missing. Cue bidding is a better approach on this hand but if you do not trust a pickup partner then 4NT is not truly awful. However it is asking for trouble over a simple 2♠ rebid!

Cheers

Paul

[plaur]

I dont understand the 3♠ / 4♣ discussion. If a hand is strong enough for 3♠ is does not mean it is also strong enough for 4♣ when single club.
I Denmark beginners are taught that 3♠ is 16-18 dummypoints (or 5 loosers) in support of spades (dummypoints = hcp + distribution). This is not enough to force to game. 4♠ is more like a 18-19 HCP balanced hand and 4♣ is short club and strength to force to game.
Where does the 17-19 HCP to bid 3♠ come from? Is that US standard?

[EricK]

This looks like a borderline hand between 2♠ and 3♠. 4♠ is an overbid (as is a splinter of 4♣).

4NT is bad in all the auctions. North should show his ♦ and the strength of his hand and then South can bid Blackwood if he so desires, as he knows there are not two quick losers in any suit.

As to whether 1430 is better than 0314, it pays to have the 5♣ response turn up as often as possible. To this end, Kantar, in his latest book on the topic, suggests that you use both 1430 and 0314 depending on whether the strong hand is asking the weak one (use 1430) or the weak hand is asking the strong one (use 0314). He also gives various rules for deciding which hand is deemed to be strong and which weak. The idea being that you need most room when the weak hand has 1 card (because with 0 you are unlikley to want to explore further). Similarly, you need most room to explore when the strong hand has 3 keycards.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3S is ok, I think the hand is borderline
for a 4C club splinter.
The 4NT bid is problematic, since North
does not know, that a club contol is on
board, but since North sees 30-32HCP,
he can asume the club control on power.

Depending on your cue bidding style
the partnership can find out about the
club control after a 4D cue by North.

There is no difference betwen 4130 and 3041,
since we are talking about spades, switch the Mayors,
and 4130 would help you, since North will know,
that the slam is a lot better than 50%,
assuming the club control is known.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on Sep 2 2006, 06:21 PM, said:

1d=1s
3s=3nt(slam try)
<snip>

Hi,

not that I dislike the 3NT call , I play it the same
way, but I seem to recall a discussion, where a lot of
forum posters claimed, that 3NT is choice of games.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[keylime]

1D-1S
2S-2NT (g/f relay)
3H-3S (semi-serious try)
4C-4D
4H-4NT
5C (1430) - 5D (queen?)
6C (yes, club king/control)-6S

I think the key is slowing this auction down. I think 3S is slightly aggressive. With the 2NT g/f relay you can get a lot more information.

With regards to 1430 vs. 0314, I believe it is more important to show 1 versus 0 early. Since opener did not jump they have somewhat limited their hand implicitly. Thusly, you want your queen ask to be as efficient as possible.

[inquiry]

sceptic, on Sep 2 2006, 05:04 PM, said:

what do you think of these bids please

I think some people have a lot to learn about bidding.

Quote

do you think a club splinter by south is wrong?

Yes, hand is not strong enough to force to game.

Quote

three souths all bidding 3 different levels of spades why?

The 2♠ bidder under-evaluated his hand, the 4♠ bidder overevaluated it.

Quote

How would you bid them?

1D - 1S
3S - 3NT * 3NT = serious 3NT, 4C = first or second rnd control
4C - 4NT
5D - 6S

** Note, I will not ask for spade queen at imps missing a keycard. Opener jumped to 3S with one keycard, he has to have it. Asking for queen here can lead to mistakes (grands off a key). At MP, i will ask for queen missing a key, but his is not the time or place to try that. **

[Free]

On each and every one of your auctions North is going to slam without a ♣ control, so I don't like any of them. I like a splinter, but perhaps that shows a stronger hand... In your first auction (which is the best alternative imo) North can cuebid 4♦. Now South has a ♣ control, so he can move on. Just using 'Blacky' is wrong if you can start cuebids.

[kenrexford]

This one deal provides a world of useful discussion.

First, I prefer using a Weinstein-Garner-Fallenius-Welland 1♦ opening, showing an unbalanced hand. This little change allows a simple raise of 1♠ to 2♠ on this hand, as the values from the stiff are already on the table This would allow a cuebidding sequence starting at a very low level.

Second, I also like the Golady 2♣ response to a 1♦ opening, to set a game force on these types of hands (artificial, GF, no 5-card major). Opener can the use transfers (2♦), hear 2♠ from Responder, and then agree spades while simultaneuously revealing the exact pattern.

Using the two together produces a neat result, especially if you add well-defined Picture Jumps.

The auction I would ideally have:

1♦ (4+ diamonds, unbalanced)
2♣ (Art., GF, no 5-card major)
2♦ (4+♦/4♥)
2♠ (4♠, no ♥ fit)
4♥ (Three of the top four hearts, two of the top three spades, no diamond control (missing the Ace and King), and, per force, a stiff club, but not the stiff Ace or King)
5♦ (asking bid -- how good are your diamonds?)
5♠ (I have the diamond Queen, but I lack the heart Ace -- but you already knew that).

At this point, if I am ultra conservative, I might want to direct us into the contract (6♦ or 6♠) where the Jack is, had I not held the trump Jack, but bidding 5NT. Partner would bid 6♣ without the spade Jack, or 6♦ with the spade Jack. I would know if spades were solid; if not, I'd try 6♦ and hope.

[kenrexford]

If you drop merely the Golady 2♣ call, the auction starts:

1♦ (4+♦, unbalanced)
1♠
2♠ (fit, shortness somewhere)
2NT (where?)
3♣ (here)
3♦ (diamond control)
3♥ (heart Ace or King
3NT (not two top spades, but serious about slam)

This is not as ideal and auction, obviously. But, Opener, with great spades, opposite serious interest, should easily commit.


If you drop all of this, 3♠ seems ideal. Now, a Serious 3NT from Responder allows a 4♣ cue -- critical. Then 4♦ from Responder should get Opener to commit.

Much weaker, but it works OK.