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I've seen some discussions here about the responder's bidding structure over 1M-(X).
I have a question related to it. How to define responder's double jump shift, for example: 1S-(X)-4C/4D/4H. Which way is better in practice, fit-jump or splinter? Supposing the single jump shift will be fit-jump.
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Fit jump or splinter over 1M-(X)-
#1
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Posted 2006-September-04, 18:03
Michael Sun
#2
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Posted 2006-September-04, 18:09
Prefer third option:
1s=3h=stiff or void somewhere, relay then tells if stiff or void and where
1h=2s=stiff somewhere
1h=3s=void somewhere
1major=4c=17+ 4333
1major=4d=5 trumps and 1 to 1.5 outside quick tricks.
This follows the theory that after 1H/S=(x)=? if responder is the weaker/limited hand then responder tells and opener asks.
OTOH if responder is the stronger/unlimited hand then responder asks with 2NT(Jacoby/Bergen) and opener tells.
1s=3h=stiff or void somewhere, relay then tells if stiff or void and where
1h=2s=stiff somewhere
1h=3s=void somewhere
1major=4c=17+ 4333
1major=4d=5 trumps and 1 to 1.5 outside quick tricks.
This follows the theory that after 1H/S=(x)=? if responder is the weaker/limited hand then responder tells and opener asks.
OTOH if responder is the stronger/unlimited hand then responder asks with 2NT(Jacoby/Bergen) and opener tells.
#3
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Posted 2006-September-05, 00:47
After an overcall I play a splinter in their suit and fit jumps in new suits. The reason is that the opponents have shown length in one suit. Therefore, it will be likely that I have either shortness in their suit, or length in a new suit. It will be less likely that I will be short in a new suit.
After a take out double, the opponents have shown length in all suits and shortness in ours. That is nothing new, since just the fact that I have a fit for partner already says that the opponents are short in our suit. The only additional information that the takeout double gives is that this opponent has a decent hand and that his remaining suits divide about evenly. Therefore, when it comes to the question of fit bids or splinters, there is no reason to play this different from 1M-(Pass)-??. That means that I play splinters after a takeout double.
Rik
After a take out double, the opponents have shown length in all suits and shortness in ours. That is nothing new, since just the fact that I have a fit for partner already says that the opponents are short in our suit. The only additional information that the takeout double gives is that this opponent has a decent hand and that his remaining suits divide about evenly. Therefore, when it comes to the question of fit bids or splinters, there is no reason to play this different from 1M-(Pass)-??. That means that I play splinters after a takeout double.
Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#4
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Posted 2006-September-05, 05:56
I like to play that:
1M (X) 3 new suit = fit jump
1M (X) 4 new suit = splinter.
1M (X) 3 new suit = fit jump
1M (X) 4 new suit = splinter.
#5
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Posted 2006-September-05, 06:00
Trinidad, on Sep 5 2006, 07:47 AM, said:
After an overcall I play a splinter in their suit and fit jumps in new suits. The reason is that the opponents have shown length in one suit. Therefore, it will be likely that I have either shortness in their suit, or length in a new suit. It will be less likely that I will be short in a new suit.
After a take out double, the opponents have shown length in all suits and shortness in ours. That is nothing new, since just the fact that I have a fit for partner already says that the opponents are short in our suit. The only additional information that the takeout double gives is that this opponent has a decent hand and that his remaining suits divide about evenly. Therefore, when it comes to the question of fit bids or splinters, there is no reason to play this different from 1M-(Pass)-??. That means that I play splinters after a takeout double.
Rik
After a take out double, the opponents have shown length in all suits and shortness in ours. That is nothing new, since just the fact that I have a fit for partner already says that the opponents are short in our suit. The only additional information that the takeout double gives is that this opponent has a decent hand and that his remaining suits divide about evenly. Therefore, when it comes to the question of fit bids or splinters, there is no reason to play this different from 1M-(Pass)-??. That means that I play splinters after a takeout double.
Rik
I play exactly the same !
Alain
Alain
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Posted 2006-September-05, 06:53
#7
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Posted 2006-September-05, 07:07
I play it as a fit jump (and the jump to the three level as well).
Paul pointed to justin's discussion of 1S-(x)-4C as a "fit jump" on a particular hand as being wrong. On his example hand, the fit jump was wrong in his view for tatical reasons. The reason is it allowed the opponents room to bid a red suit at the four level to suggest a save. Of course, the same logic could apply to a 4C splinter (and add double 4C to suggest a save in clubs, so increase the possible save suits by one). So don't necessarily assume the position proposed is that since 4C on his hand is out, a splinter would be better (in fact the hand held a singleton diamond and he did not advocate bidding 4D as splinter either).
I see some use a 3 level jump as a fit jump and a four level jump as a splinter. The logic here is if you had game forcing values, after a 3 level jump, you can just keep bidding. Thus, they are getting both options. I prefer not to play this way. I use the three level jump as game invite fit jump, not game invite Plus, the reason being the bidding will likely continue and it is good if partner knows the overall value of your hand so he can make an intellegent decision. Imagine, for example...
1H-(x)-3C -4S
?
If 3C can be forcing only to 3H or can be game going with clubs, how is partner to make an intellegent decision. But if 3C was limited to values for 3H raise (and a direct 4C bid as one with sufficient values to force to game), partner will be much better positioned here to make an informed decision.
Paul pointed to justin's discussion of 1S-(x)-4C as a "fit jump" on a particular hand as being wrong. On his example hand, the fit jump was wrong in his view for tatical reasons. The reason is it allowed the opponents room to bid a red suit at the four level to suggest a save. Of course, the same logic could apply to a 4C splinter (and add double 4C to suggest a save in clubs, so increase the possible save suits by one). So don't necessarily assume the position proposed is that since 4C on his hand is out, a splinter would be better (in fact the hand held a singleton diamond and he did not advocate bidding 4D as splinter either).
I see some use a 3 level jump as a fit jump and a four level jump as a splinter. The logic here is if you had game forcing values, after a 3 level jump, you can just keep bidding. Thus, they are getting both options. I prefer not to play this way. I use the three level jump as game invite fit jump, not game invite Plus, the reason being the bidding will likely continue and it is good if partner knows the overall value of your hand so he can make an intellegent decision. Imagine, for example...
1H-(x)-3C -4S
?
If 3C can be forcing only to 3H or can be game going with clubs, how is partner to make an intellegent decision. But if 3C was limited to values for 3H raise (and a direct 4C bid as one with sufficient values to force to game), partner will be much better positioned here to make an informed decision.
--Ben--
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Posted 2006-September-05, 11:16
Note Justin's excellent Blog discussion. Since I do not have 1-1.5 outside tricks I just bid 1s=x=4s telling partner we have less defense against a 5 level bid.
Add more defense and quick tricks and we could have bid 1s=x=4D! Partner would know about defense in my hand but not about the long club suit, neither would the opponents.
Add more defense and quick tricks and we could have bid 1s=x=4D! Partner would know about defense in my hand but not about the long club suit, neither would the opponents.
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