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4216 over 3D

#1 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2006-August-24, 16:39

AKJ9 Q6 J AJ87xx, IMPs all vulnerable. Partner passes, RHO opens a weak 3♦, described as "8-13 points" (hcp + length I think).

What is your plan?

Arend
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#2 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2006-August-24, 16:55

I am going to X but I would think bidding 4C is a very reasonable option.

I just hate getting yelled at by my partners when I go past 3NT. :)

Waiting to see the 3S bidders here. :)
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#3 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-August-24, 20:02

Yuk!

4C. Double, 3S, and pass could all be right.

Peter
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#4 User is offline   cade909 

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Posted 2006-August-24, 22:09

Double.
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#5 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-August-24, 23:12

I am planning to buy two beers.

I know the contract will be 4H. It just will. So, I plan on buying two beers because partner will have pulled it in or partner will not. Celebration or pay back, I am not sure.

(I doubled)
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#6 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2006-August-24, 23:46

I hate being dealt this hand.

I loathe doubling because pard might be bidding a 4 card heart suit (yuck!).

I bid 4♣ and hope for the best.
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#7 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 00:18

4 ♣ if this is natural
4 ♣ if this shows a two suiter with clubs...

And I like the idea with the two beers. I will buy two more.
Kind Regards

Roland

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#8 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 00:31

I double. If partner bids 3♥ I will bid 4♣ which hopefully shows this sort of hand. If, however, he bids 4♥ I will pass.

It could, of course, go badly wrong, but then so could anything else. At least double keeps 3NT in the frame and allows us to find a spade fit if partner happens to have both majors (and is longer in spades OR has enough strength to cue-bid)
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#9 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 02:49

I double and bid 4C over 3H, but pass 4H.

Last time my partner had this shape we bid

3D x P 3H
P 4C P 4S
all pass

I think double-then-4C shows this sort of hand (or possibly 3316). I had a very weak 4423 and 4S made.
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 03:05

I'd double and bid 3NT. This should show my hand: no ♦ stopper and tollerance for ♠ and ♣.

Dbl followed by 4♣ seems also reasonable.
I would NEVER bid 4♣ as 2-suiter since I'm waaaaay too weak for that.
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 03:51

With ELC: dbl, intending to convert hearts into spades.

No ELC: dbl, and pass pard's heart bid.
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 07:14

The last time I saw this pattern, or thereabouts, it was my dummy after I had jumped to 4♥ on a four-card suit (AKxx). As I held a decent hand with the two missing top heart honors, 4H made. In practice, my approach was to win the lead, cash the top three hearts, and then start winning my clubs.

A lot of great stories from great players focus on the 4-2 major fit coming in.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#13 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 07:55

Free, on Aug 25 2006, 10:05 AM, said:

I'd double and bid 3NT. This should show my hand: no ♦ stopper and tollerance for ♠ and ♣.

Dbl followed by 4♣ seems also reasonable.
I would NEVER bid 4♣ as 2-suiter since I'm waaaaay too weak for that.

I'd be a bit wary about 'should show my hand: no diamond stopper'
If you had, say,

AKx(x)
KQx
Ax
Qxxx(x)

wouldn't you like to double then bid 3NT showing roughly take-out double shape and values with a diamond stop, but not certain 3NT is right?
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#14 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 09:04

That's a 3NT for me. Sometimes preempts work...
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#15 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 09:59

Yeah, I'd second that last comment. Bid 3NT if it is an option.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#16 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 10:39

I don't understand the desire to bid 3NT at once on a take-out double shape.
Let's take my sample hand.
You hold

AKx(x)
KQx
Ax
Qxxx(x)

and RHO opens 3D

You have two alternative calls:
i) double, then bid 3NT over 3M or pass 4M
ii) 3NT

I really fail to see the merits of the immediate 3NT call, which both wrongsides the 3NT contract and means that you play 3NT rather than a simple 4M opposite something like xxx Axxxx x KJxx, and 3NT rather than a simple 6M opposite QJxxx Ax xx AJxx.

Bidding 3NT at once only gains when partner bids 4M or 4C over the double, and you have 9 tricks in 3NT but don't have game in a suit contract. This is pretty rare, especially when you have such hard diamond values.
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#17 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 10:45

After a 3♣ preempt, I like the double, because my partner will bid 3♦ Lebensohl-ish on most hands where 3NT is right. 3♦ jams us.

The more I think about it, though, I am leaning back to the double. Sure, "bid 3NT when plausible" is a good rule. But, perhaps the onus should be on partner to bid 3NT when he lacks a major, stopper or no stopper, most of the time...
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#18 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 14:31

FrancesHinden, on Aug 25 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

I double and bid 4C over 3H, but pass 4H.

Ok, that was my plan, too. Of course partner bids 4H, I pass, and this gets doubled by LHO, passed around to me.

What do you do?

Arend
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#19 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2006-August-25, 15:07

This depends upon how many beers you want to buy.

Being a cheap bastard, I pass.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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