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Another interesting post
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/...6_08/009357.php
Extra security after unsucessful terrorist attacks
#41
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Posted 2006-August-17, 18:13
Alderaan delenda est
#42
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Posted 2006-August-17, 22:31
hrothgar, on Aug 17 2006, 07:13 PM, said:
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/07/...one_peroxid.php
It can't be that tough to do...since they've already done it several times, successfully.
#43
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Posted 2006-August-18, 00:56
jtfanclub, on Aug 18 2006, 06:31 AM, said:
hrothgar, on Aug 17 2006, 07:13 PM, said:
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/07/...one_peroxid.php
It can't be that tough to do...since they've already done it several times, successfully.
Huh? Your link has nothing to do with the difficulty of mixing the binary explosives during the flight.
But I learnt a wonderful phrase:
"War on liquids"
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#44
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Posted 2006-August-18, 01:30
Some day they will likely bar people from boarding an aircraft altogether. Passengers may explode if the cabin crew is impolite or they may start fighting violently and create havoc.
It's also much safer to take off with an empty aircraft (pilots are allowed).
(if some don't sense the irony, I'd better add there is a limit as to how much you can and should do. It's dangerous to live; you could die from it).
Roland
It's also much safer to take off with an empty aircraft (pilots are allowed).
(if some don't sense the irony, I'd better add there is a limit as to how much you can and should do. It's dangerous to live; you could die from it).
Roland
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice
#45
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Posted 2006-August-18, 07:57
cherdano, on Aug 18 2006, 01:56 AM, said:
jtfanclub, on Aug 18 2006, 06:31 AM, said:
[It can't be that tough to do...since they've already done it several times, successfully.
Huh? Your link has nothing to do with the difficulty of mixing the binary explosives during the flight.
But I learnt a wonderful phrase:
"War on liquids"
The link shows that in the same city, a year ago, terrorists used the very same explosive to blow up buses.
Regardless of how difficult it is to create the explosive, they've done it. If the method that they were reported to use wouldn't work, then I think it safe to say that the reporting was wrong, not the terrorists.
#46
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Posted 2006-August-18, 09:38
jtfanclub, on Aug 18 2006, 03:57 PM, said:
cherdano, on Aug 18 2006, 01:56 AM, said:
jtfanclub, on Aug 18 2006, 06:31 AM, said:
[It can't be that tough to do...since they've already done it several times, successfully.
Huh? Your link has nothing to do with the difficulty of mixing the binary explosives during the flight.
But I learnt a wonderful phrase:
"War on liquids"
The link shows that in the same city, a year ago, terrorists used the very same explosive to blow up buses.
Regardless of how difficult it is to create the explosive, they've done it. If the method that they were reported to use wouldn't work, then I think it safe to say that the reporting was wrong, not the terrorists.
The link hrothgar posted doesn't dispute at all that it is possible to assemble this kind of liquid explosive. It only claims that it is not possible to assemble this on an airplane (and do more serious damage with it than just hurting yourself).
The implication of above post would be that it is sufficient to detect liquid explosives, but not necessary to ban any liquid because of this "binary explosives" threat. In other words, there is no new threat, liquid explosives have always been a danger, in fact nitroglycerin has been successfully used to bomb an airplane.
Arend
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
#47
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Posted 2006-August-18, 09:56
A long and unedited story (sorry about typos):
Sheri and I were on a plane bound for Heathrow on the Thursday morning when this happened. We were on our way to Warsaw for the European Championships.
The passengers on our plane were not informed of what was going on (which makes sense I think).
But we knew something was strange when we were told that everyone on our plane had to go through passport control - normally passengers who connect to other international flights in Heathrow do not have to do this.
So we stood in a very long line (for what seemed like no reason) and looked at our watches as the time for our connecting flight approached. When we got to the front of the line we thought that our flight to Warsaw was leaving in 10 minutes.
Turns out it didn't leave for 2 days.
But we didn't know this at the time so we ran to the appropriate terminal. When we got there we found it was completely packed with people. It was just like the footage that was shown (endlessly) on CNN.
We had no idea what was happening so we asked a British Airways rep. There were a lot of these reps and security people floating through the crowd. We had interactions with several of these people and I was impressed (but not really surprised) by how composed and competent they all were.
What surprised me was the incredible level of composure of the passengers. In fact, I don't recall seeing a single passenger behave badly.
We were told that flights all flights were either delayed or cancelled. We made what turned out to be a smart decision by leaving the airport to find a hotel in which we could wait out the storm.
There are a lot of hotels near Heathrow but they were filling up because the airlines were all booking blocks of rooms for the flight crews. The 4th hotel we tried was the Marriot and there we stayed for 2 days.
A few hours later we learned that our flight, like almost all others, had actually been cancelled. We got in touch with our travel agent and asked her to get us seats on the next possible plane to Warsaw. She was successful. Not having to deal with this myself has given me a greater appreciation of the value of travel agents!
Meanwhile, we did not have any of our luggage - it had been checked through to Warsaw and we were not allowed to retrieve it. So we wore the same clothes and watching CNN for 2 days. When we learned that we would not be allowed to take our 3 laptops on the plane, we went and bought a suitcase for them.
I was not happy about the way our computers were going to making the trip to Warsaw
We arrived at Heathrow at 5AM on Saturday. Our flight was scheduled to leave at 8AM. It was a zoo again of course. There were 1000s of people outside the terminal building. Announcements were made when passengers of specific flights were allowed to go inside. Announcements were also made when specific flights got cancelled. Passengers of non-cancelled flights were generally allowed to go in to the terminal building about 2 hours before their scheduled departure times.
But there was no word about our flight until 1 hour before it was scheduled to depart. Finally we were allowed inside the building.
Then there were some more endless lines (first to get our boarding passes and check our luggage, then for security). The few things we were allowed to bring on board were in clear plastic bags, just like on CNN.
When we finally got through these lines, it was already a half an hour after our flight had been scheduled to leave. We ran (a long way!) to the gate as we heard announcements for "last call for flight 826 to Warsaw. All passengers please come to the gate immediately!".
We made it to the gate in time, but several of our fellow passengers on this flight did not make it.
Neither did anyone's luggage.
When we arrived in Warsaw almost everyone on our flight had to go and file a lost baggage claim. This meant yet another really big slow line - perhaps the most annoying line of them all.
Sheri really wanted a cigarette. I was content with my nicotine gum.
But then something good happened! We saw one of the 2 suitcases that we had originally checked through to Warsaw in a pile of suitcases without owners. Somehow it had arrived in Warsaw on another flight.
However, the other suitcase we had checked at the same time was not with it.
And as of right now (1 week later), we still do not have that suitcase!
Our 3rd suitcase (the new one with the computers) was delivered to our hotel the next day. The computers appeared to be in good health (phew!) but we could not turn them on because we had packaged the power cords and transformers in the suitcase that we did not have.
We still can't turn on our computers.
Ours is one of those 1000s of misplaced bags you may have heard about on CNN,. According to British Airways, our bag will be delivered to our home in Las Vegas within the next day or 2.
Besides that, we had a wonderful trip. Congrats to our Polish friends for running on a most immpressive tournament!
Our journey home was uneventful. Somehow there we no long lines. There were still restrictions on what we could bring on the plane and we had to check our computers again. They (and we) arrived home safely in Las Vegas last night.
All in all, it was a nightmare but I prefer this nightmare to the one that could have happened, especially since our route (via Heathrow and LA) was one of those that had been targetted.
Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
Sheri and I were on a plane bound for Heathrow on the Thursday morning when this happened. We were on our way to Warsaw for the European Championships.
The passengers on our plane were not informed of what was going on (which makes sense I think).
But we knew something was strange when we were told that everyone on our plane had to go through passport control - normally passengers who connect to other international flights in Heathrow do not have to do this.
So we stood in a very long line (for what seemed like no reason) and looked at our watches as the time for our connecting flight approached. When we got to the front of the line we thought that our flight to Warsaw was leaving in 10 minutes.
Turns out it didn't leave for 2 days.
But we didn't know this at the time so we ran to the appropriate terminal. When we got there we found it was completely packed with people. It was just like the footage that was shown (endlessly) on CNN.
We had no idea what was happening so we asked a British Airways rep. There were a lot of these reps and security people floating through the crowd. We had interactions with several of these people and I was impressed (but not really surprised) by how composed and competent they all were.
What surprised me was the incredible level of composure of the passengers. In fact, I don't recall seeing a single passenger behave badly.
We were told that flights all flights were either delayed or cancelled. We made what turned out to be a smart decision by leaving the airport to find a hotel in which we could wait out the storm.
There are a lot of hotels near Heathrow but they were filling up because the airlines were all booking blocks of rooms for the flight crews. The 4th hotel we tried was the Marriot and there we stayed for 2 days.
A few hours later we learned that our flight, like almost all others, had actually been cancelled. We got in touch with our travel agent and asked her to get us seats on the next possible plane to Warsaw. She was successful. Not having to deal with this myself has given me a greater appreciation of the value of travel agents!
Meanwhile, we did not have any of our luggage - it had been checked through to Warsaw and we were not allowed to retrieve it. So we wore the same clothes and watching CNN for 2 days. When we learned that we would not be allowed to take our 3 laptops on the plane, we went and bought a suitcase for them.
I was not happy about the way our computers were going to making the trip to Warsaw
We arrived at Heathrow at 5AM on Saturday. Our flight was scheduled to leave at 8AM. It was a zoo again of course. There were 1000s of people outside the terminal building. Announcements were made when passengers of specific flights were allowed to go inside. Announcements were also made when specific flights got cancelled. Passengers of non-cancelled flights were generally allowed to go in to the terminal building about 2 hours before their scheduled departure times.
But there was no word about our flight until 1 hour before it was scheduled to depart. Finally we were allowed inside the building.
Then there were some more endless lines (first to get our boarding passes and check our luggage, then for security). The few things we were allowed to bring on board were in clear plastic bags, just like on CNN.
When we finally got through these lines, it was already a half an hour after our flight had been scheduled to leave. We ran (a long way!) to the gate as we heard announcements for "last call for flight 826 to Warsaw. All passengers please come to the gate immediately!".
We made it to the gate in time, but several of our fellow passengers on this flight did not make it.
Neither did anyone's luggage.
When we arrived in Warsaw almost everyone on our flight had to go and file a lost baggage claim. This meant yet another really big slow line - perhaps the most annoying line of them all.
Sheri really wanted a cigarette. I was content with my nicotine gum.
But then something good happened! We saw one of the 2 suitcases that we had originally checked through to Warsaw in a pile of suitcases without owners. Somehow it had arrived in Warsaw on another flight.
However, the other suitcase we had checked at the same time was not with it.
And as of right now (1 week later), we still do not have that suitcase!
Our 3rd suitcase (the new one with the computers) was delivered to our hotel the next day. The computers appeared to be in good health (phew!) but we could not turn them on because we had packaged the power cords and transformers in the suitcase that we did not have.
We still can't turn on our computers.
Ours is one of those 1000s of misplaced bags you may have heard about on CNN,. According to British Airways, our bag will be delivered to our home in Las Vegas within the next day or 2.
Besides that, we had a wonderful trip. Congrats to our Polish friends for running on a most immpressive tournament!
Our journey home was uneventful. Somehow there we no long lines. There were still restrictions on what we could bring on the plane and we had to check our computers again. They (and we) arrived home safely in Las Vegas last night.
All in all, it was a nightmare but I prefer this nightmare to the one that could have happened, especially since our route (via Heathrow and LA) was one of those that had been targetted.
Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
#48
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Posted 2006-August-18, 11:42
cherdano, on Aug 18 2006, 10:38 AM, said:
The link hrothgar posted doesn't dispute at all that it is possible to assemble this kind of liquid explosive. It only claims that it is not possible to assemble this on an airplane (and do more serious damage with it than just hurting yourself).
The implication of above post would be that it is sufficient to detect liquid explosives, but not necessary to ban any liquid because of this "binary explosives" threat. In other words, there is no new threat, liquid explosives have always been a danger, in fact nitroglycerin has been successfully used to bomb an airplane.
Arend
The implication of above post would be that it is sufficient to detect liquid explosives, but not necessary to ban any liquid because of this "binary explosives" threat. In other words, there is no new threat, liquid explosives have always been a danger, in fact nitroglycerin has been successfully used to bomb an airplane.
Arend
Well, I agree this isn't really a new threat, although how you detect the stuff without making people drink what they carry on I don't know.
But why would they assemble it in the airplane? Find an airport restroom somewhere after the security checkpoint, put an "out of order" sign up, and go to town. You could work on it for hours, possibly even days. Or if one of your buddies has a felafel stand on the secure side, there really isn't any limit at all: you could set up your own chem lab there.
Fred- glad to hear you made it! Hope you didn't miss too much.