[Al_U_Card]

Scoring: MP

p 1NT p 2♣
p 2♥ 2♠ 3♦
p ???

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Playing 2/1 GF, and 4-suit transfers (phony and garbage stayman) what type of hand does this show and is the bid forcing?

[mr1303]

What does 1NT 2C 2H 3D mean in your system.

I vote for whatever that means.

[pclayton]

You can make an agreement to define 3♦ as anything.

In standard, Stayman, followed by 3♦ is generally forcing, but I have seen some it as a signoff. I don't know anyone that plays this as an invite.

I can't see how an intervening bid matters, and I don't like to make a lot of partnership notes about these rarely occurring sequences. Just ignore (or double) the bid.

[kenrexford]

I echo the idea that this auction is too rare to care, opting for whatever the auction means without the interference.

When does this auction ever occur??? 1NT is passed, with late action in the boss trump suit? I expect this could slightly make sense as a means of showing 4♠/5♣, perhaps, but that seems odd. It would be more likely after a transfer. I have no idea what 2♠ shows. Is the person a lunatic?

[Winstonm]

At MPs I'm not sure if any bid should ever be forcing - however, because it's MP you had better be right because you are in top/bottom trouble over a misunderstanding.

At imps, it is easier to me - I lose less if I don't play the right partscore and lose more by not getting to the right game; hence, at imps this is forcing to me.

[Al_U_Card]

Scoring: MP

no previous agreement

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At an ACBL regional in the MP pairs. Average type field with questionable opps. Since I expect 3D to be forcing but with no agreement and no great place to park it, if the hand is Qxxx x KJxxxx xx a pass seemed reasonable. I would have expected the above hand to bid 3S to force to game with H and/or slam aspirations.

[mike777]

forcing must admit I would not have thought twice on this one.

[1eyedjack]

pclayton, on Aug 9 2006, 12:59 AM, said:

In standard, Stayman, followed by 3♦ is generally forcing, but I have seen some it as a signoff. I don't know anyone that plays this as an invite.

It is quite common in UK for those playing a very simple system of responses which embraces stayman and transfers, that stayman followed by 3m is natural and invitational. Usually they are playing a weak 1N opener but I don't know that that is relevant. The argument for the treatment (not much of an argument but having some logic to it) is:

With a weak minor you would transfer into the minor.

With a GF hand with 4 card major and longer minor , the 4-4 major suit fit can still be investigated at the 3 level following an immediate natural 3m response, but only if that immediate 3m response is forcing. The 3m response does not promise a 4 card major, but there is the room to investigate the possibility.

With in invitational hand with 4 card major and longer minor, an immediate non-forcing response in 3m potentially gives up on a 4-4 major suit fit that would be found via Stayman.

[paulg]

Playing 4-suit transfers, with an invitational diamond hand I would transfer and hope partner will break (or not, depending on method) to show a hand that would accept an invitational hand.

With a weak hand with a 4-card major and 6-card diamond suit, I would use stayman and then escape into diamonds although this is probably not a common method. Over the 2♠ bid I would pass with this hand.

With an invitational hand with 4-card major and 6-card diamond suit, I would use stayman and now be in a position to double the 2♠ (or raise hearts).

Perhaps partner has a raise to 2NT with 5 diamonds - at matchpoints it is likely to double rather than guess 3♦.

So I think that 3♦ should be forcing with concern about spades for notrump.

Paul

[Free]

Partner had a fitjump, so why did he bid an ambigious 3♦...

[helene_t]

In the uncontested auction, if 3♦ is natural, I prefer to play it as invitational. This is what most Dutch players had learned at school but a lot players either don't know this or decided to play it as forcing so I wouldn't say it's "standard". Of course it should depend what kind of minor suit transfers your play.

In SA, it's forcing, so I suppose it will also be forcing in the contested auction.

[DWM]

Not sure how good a fall back it is, but if in doubt I take a new suit at the 3 level as forcing.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

subject to aggreement.

The major question to ask is,
what does 2NT instead of 3D
mean?
Is it Lebensohl?

Without any agreement 3D should
be forcing and natural.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: For me 3D is nonforcing, but I play
reverse Lebensohl.

[P_Marlowe]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 8 2006, 09:04 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

no previous agreement

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At an ACBL regional in the MP pairs. Average type field with questionable opps. Since I expect 3D to be forcing but with no agreement and no great place to park it, if the hand is Qxxx x KJxxxx xx a pass seemed reasonable. I would have expected the above hand to bid 3S to force to game with H and/or slam aspirations.

Hi,

the main problem with 3S is, that nobody
knows what it means?

Does it show a heart fit, is is asking for a
stopper, or is it only a general force?

So assuimin, 3D is forcing, it is certainly a
better description.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[awm]

Every bid is always subject to agreement.

On the other hand it seems unreasonable for this call to mean anything different from what it would've meant without the 2♠ bid. For most north american players this is forcing.

[willow23]

I take it as a forcing bid with a !d suit.

I am more interested in which major you have...

Based on the auction, I am leaning towards ♥ since i would expect one to dbl ♠ for penalty or bid NT to show stoppers..so I figure you are looking at 4♥ but giving p the option of NT game..