[Al_U_Card]

Hand to follow....without interference, on the sequence 1♣ 1♥ 1♠ 3♥ is 3H invitational or forcing?

[FrancesHinden]

Without any specific agreement otherwise, invitational.

[joker_gib]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 28 2006, 01:36 PM, said:

Without any specific agreement otherwise, invitational.

I agree and think it's fairly standard to go through 4SF to have a forcing sequence, isn't it ?

Alain

[SoTired]

After 1C 1H 1S:
weak: pass, 1N, 2C, 2H, 2S
invite: 2N, 3C, 3H, 3S, 3D(♥/♦ 55)
GF: 2D (4SF), 3N, 4C, 4D (splinter with spade support), 4H, 4S

[Free]

Since 1♣-2♥ is still GF in most standard descriptions, the auction above is invitational... When not playing GF jumps, you need specific agreements about sequences like these. Bidding through 4th suit GF or invite is most important.

[neilkaz]

joker_gib, on Jul 28 2006, 08:38 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 28 2006, 01:36 PM, said:

Without any specific agreement otherwise, invitational.

I agree and think it's fairly standard to go through 4SF to have a forcing sequence, isn't it ?

Alain

Agreed !!

[adhoc3]

Given 4th suit forcing is on(this is not a problem I believe), 3H is invitational as for me. 7 cards or more, need some control, a hand better than bidding 2H.

[luke warm]

i'd consider 3H there to be from 9-11/12 points, invitational

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

first question, what would a 2H response
to the opening bid mean?
Strong / weak / ultra weak ?

if strong => inv.
if Weak => forcing
if Ultra weak => inv.

If reverse Flannery => inv.
(depends on your 4th suit forcing agreements)

With kind reards
Marlowe

[zasanya]

I voted other
With my regular P 3♥ preemptive 4+cards ♥.2♥=3 card support passable
2nt= support invitational and 2♠=forcing.
YUK thought opps were bidding 1 ♣ and 1♠.Sorry

This post has been edited by zasanya: 2006-July-31, 01:39

[sfbp]

another plug for XYZ

This scheme allows you to have it all:

immediate weak jumps over 1♣ (to 2♥) 0-6 HCP

after given sequence:
Pass "i made my one and only bid" 5-6 points 4-5 hearts, ♠ tolerance
2♥ drop dead, probably 5 cards, 7-9 points (less HCP with no spade tolerance)
2♣ some invitational hand (pard doesnt know which yet, he has to bid 2♦)
2♦ game forcing 5 hearts (possibly some other pattern and not giving up on slam)
3♥ game forcing (the STRONG JUMP SHIFT hand)
2N 4 hearts 5-6 clubs, less than game, pd must bid 3♣


(and there are various other possibilities too, notice the unbid sequences). For example your 3♥ bid after the 2♣ 2♦ puppet/relay can be the same hand in standard that you intend by 3♥ in the original point, ie invitational with 6 ♠s.

No special need to learn all this in detail - once you have the structure the meaning of the bids becomes clear.

Stephen

[benlessard]

In standard its invitationnal. You have to bid 4th suit to set up GF.

But its a lame way to play.

A better way is using 4th suit as all the invitationnal hand and the 2nd level bid arte to play and all jump as GF but nobody play this way.

Ben

[the hog]

benlessard, on Jul 31 2006, 03:56 PM, said:

In standard its invitationnal. You have to bid 4th suit to set up GF.

But its a lame way to play.

A better way is using 4th suit as all the invitationnal hand and the 2nd level bid arte to play and all jump as GF but nobody play this way.

Ben

There is a reason why n one plays it your way. With a good hand the slow approach is necessary to elicit more information. Your approach is not very sensible.

[benlessard]

Quote

      There is a reason why n one plays it your way. With a good hand the slow approach is necessary to elicit more information. Your approach is not very sensible. 

i agree that with slammish hand the slow way is preferable. But playing at the 2 level with invitationnal hand is so much more important.


standard way

1d--1s--1nt-- 3s INV

1d--1h--1s----3h INV

1d --1h--1s---2c---???----2 or 3h GF

1d--1s---1nt----2c---???---2 or 3s GF


1d--1s---1nt---2h followed by 3h or 3h directly (to play)



Reversed way

1d--1s--1nt-- 3s GF

1d--1h--1s----3h GF

1d --1h--1s---2c---???----2 or 3h INV

1d--1s---1nt----2c---???---2 or 3s INV

1d--1s---1nt---2h To play



I can tell you that you will gain many imps by playing the reversed method or something similar.


a shapely 10-11 pts facing a minimum opening often go down at the 3 level.