[Deanrover]

Let me state - I am certain that there is nothing dodgy going on. But, it is not standard practice in the online gambling world for the site's employees to also play on the same site. I dont think people will kick up a big fuss over a $10 prize money tournament, but when the $s start getting bigger it will look potentially suspicious to many people.

[luke warm]

i know that other sites do have rules in place for this, simply to avoid any suggestion that something untoward is going on... i don't think it applies or is necessary here, i consider the bbo management to be an online family, and i trust them implicitly... i acknowledge that maybe my attitude isn't universal

[fred]

We do a lot of things that are not "standard practice".

Sheri and I have both been playing in various MBTs in an effort to try to build up the numbers in these games. Seems like some people enjoy playing in MBTs in which we participate and that some MBTs don't get off the ground at all unless there are a couple of players who register early.

Of course we could disguise our identities if we did not want people to know that we were playing in these tournaments.

Anyone who has followed my record in the MBTs I have played in will probably not be suspicious anymore (but Sheri has been a consistent winner).

If we receive other complaints about this, we will reconsider, but so far almost all the feedback we have received has been along the lines of "nice to see you and Sheri playing in MBTs" and "it was fun to beat you by over 2000 points".

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Deanrover]

luke warm, on Jul 4 2006, 03:11 PM, said:

i know that other sites do have rules in place for this, simply to avoid any suggestion that something untoward is going on... i don't think it applies or is necessary here, i consider the bbo management to be an online family, and i trust them implicitly... i acknowledge that maybe my attitude isn't universal

That is because you are an active member. My trust is based likewise, and I have met FnS multiple times and also done work for them. I think, however, if BBO ever introduced tournaments with a reasonable prize (say $1K for first place), and F,S or U ever won it (likely as they are excellent players), people would cry foul. I hope I am wrong.

[fred]

Most likely the practice will stop if and when the time comes that it is possible to win "real money" in these tournaments.

The way things are right now, even if Sheri and I could come first and second in every MBT (which is not even close to being possible) the money we would make would represent only a small fraction of the value of our time.

We are playing in these tournaments to help promote them, not for the money (which is just as well since Sheri's wins only barely cover my losses).

Of course, our members' perceptions are the most important thing. If we learn that a lot of people have the concerns you raise, we will stop playing.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

For what it's worth, I don't see any problem with this whatsoever. We are all BBO'ers because we trust the management. There is absolutely no reason why we should not trust Fred, Sheri and Uday in the MBTs too.

If they win, it's because they are better players. That's hardly a crime.

Roland

[cherdano]

I prefer to live in a world and play on a BBO where BBO members trust Fred, Sheri and Uday enough to play in the same money tournament as they do.

[luke warm]

cherdano, on Jul 4 2006, 10:42 AM, said:

I prefer to live in a world and play on a BBO where BBO members trust Fred, Sheri and Uday enough to play in the same money tournament as they do.

muy ditto

[Gerben42]

Quote

I prefer to live in a world and play on a BBO where BBO members trust Fred, Sheri and Uday enough to play in the same money tournament as they do.

I for one do.

BTW this is not just an online gambling place. This is an online Bridge site and unlike all other places, the staff is active on the site and accessible. Although I have very few experience with online gambling sites, my guess is that the staff is usually contact by anonymous mail and are never seen or heard...

[Echognome]

Like others, I think this idea is way off base. I believe it is more fun to play in an MBT when you see Fred there struggling with the same lousy hands that you always seem to get. And let's face it, we're more likely to beat Fred in an MBT than in a team match. The amount of money these things involve is so ridiculously low that to even mention something might be untoward is unwarranted. I agree that if a grand was on the line, people would start to wonder (and for no good reason). But for the early promotion of the game, I would rather play when someone like Fred was playing than against total randoms.

[tenbrvc]

In my humble opinion, I don't believe that BBO staff will cheat, because I am sure they all adhere to extremely high standards.

However I feel that they should NOT participate in money tournaments, because there MAY BE a perception, whether true or not, that they may have an unfair advantage.

It is the same reason why in contests or prize draws that anybody working for the company or associated with the company in any way, like relatives of employees, cannot enter, because there is a PERCEPTION that they may have an advantage.

I also think that BBO staff playing in money tournaments under another identity is wrong.

[Gerben42]

What are these silly perceptions you talk about? You could see it the other way around.

BBO members play in money bridge tournaments with BBO staff because they trust them, and BBO staff play in the money bridge tournaments under their own name because they know to keep the highest standards.

[tenbrvc]

I have one more thought on this. You don't have to agree with me.

Frankly, I don't care whether BBO staff plays or not, since I don't play in these tournaments, and this is not going to make me lose any sleep over.

And if the staff plays, I think all participants should be aware that BBO staff may play in these money tournaments, whether the money involved is negligible or not. So if the players choose to enter, at least they have been warned.

If you don't like it -- don't enter. It's that simple. But there should be a warning.

[pagehoutex]

I am a little concerned about the misuse of terminology in this thread.

This is NOT a gambling site. It is a gaming site. The games are games of skill not chance (other than the chance we each take that the random deal will be good to us instead of opponents in the number of cards with AKQJ on them LOL) and the vast majority do not involve any money and a goodly number award masterpoints rather money.

Furthermore in the games that do involve money the player is NOT making a bet on the outcome but simply winning or losing money based on the number of plus or minus scoring points on each individual hand in Money Bridge Games and on total plus points at end of Money Bridge Tournaments and on final score in Individuals that pay BBO masterpoints which convert to BBO dollars. The money acquired is not the result of betting as on a gambling site such a poker site. Instead the money is the prize for doing better than the rest of the field in tournaments and better than the human/gib pair in the money bridge games.

Respectfully submitted

[ducky_rh]

People!! Come to your senses!

Fred and Sheri are among the top players in the world, no doubt, but suppose you entered a money tournament and saw Versace and Lauria, or even Garozzo and Reisig, among your opponents? What is the difference?

I don't play in money tournaments, but I do wish for them to be successful, because it will help keep BBO free for all of us. I would think it would be, if not an honor, at least a privilege, to be playing against such opposition. Play sound bridge, and you have a chance.

Or would you prefer to be guaranteed only beginners and novices as opponents? Would that then feed your egos properly?

[barmar]

ducky_rh, on Jul 25 2006, 12:41 PM, said:

Fred and Sheri are among the top players in the world, no doubt, but suppose you entered a money tournament and saw Versace and Lauria, or even Garozzo and Reisig, among your opponents? What is the difference?

The difference is that none of those other players have direct access to the BBO source code and server. Fred, on the other hand, *could* easily cheat if he were so inclined. So we don't have to trust Versace, but we do have to trust Fred.

[fred]

If you must know...

While it would be reasonable for you to think that this is the case, it turns out that Uday is the only person who could get away with cheating if he wanted to and Uday never plays in our money games (for this very reason).

Yes, I do have the ability to look at our server source code, but this would not help me to cheat. I do not have the ability to change the server source code to enable cheating for myself (at least not without Uday's help).

I have a lot more control over the BBO client program, but we have arranged things so that cheating by hacking the client program is impossible.

Sheri is not a programmer - she would have no hope of cheating without Uday's help (but that is true for everyone, regardless of whether or not they are on our staff).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pagehoutex]

Well, then, I certainly hope that Uday never decides to end his relationship with BBO and that he finds the Fountain of Youth and lives forever.

[barmar]

You are an owner of the business. If you wanted access to the server source code, I'm sure you could get it. And Uday is your business partner, so if you need his help to accomplish something, he might provide it. And if someone doesn't trust you, why would they even believe you when you say you don't have access to the server code, or that Sheri isn't a programmer?

I'm not accusing you of anything (I've played against you and Sheri in MBT, and even beat Sheri once), just playing Devil's Advocate. The concern is not totally unreasonable, and there's not really anything you can say that could placate someone who doesn't trust you implicitly. It's probably the fact that so little money is involved in MBT that dissuades anyone from raising a real stink.