[inquiry]

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What do you want to explore?

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I want to make sure that my partner has a CLUB control BEFORE I commit to slam (small opposite two key cards). I assure you, I am bidding seven opposite 3 just fine. The three heart bid give us two suit trump agreement, so when I eventually use BLACKWOOD (assuming partner can cue-bid clubs), we will still get to seven. In addition, we get to six when he has a) two controls, and a club control.

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With AK of d and the cA you play 7h without one of them you play 6, without two you play 5 and ask pd to open reasonable hands.

I consider S-KQJ H-Qxxxx D-AKJ C-QJ very reasonable. Your way gets you to six hearts off one on a club lead. My way stops in 4H without giving up on six. I consider,
Kx QT9xxx AJT C-QJ not quite so reasonable, but my way stops savely in 4H, while your way gets you to 5H and loses two club on the lead and has only 50-50 chance of making 5H (must find diamond king).

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So what is the purpose of 3h ? It will only be useful to confuse pd about what keycards are the ones that you need.

Sorry luis. The purpose of the game forcing 3H bid is starting a cue-bidding sequence is EXACTLY what this hand needs after the 3D raise. It allows you to find out about the CLUB control BEFORE you commit the hand above 4H's with blackwood. With two suit trump agreement, you can still find out about the DIAMOND-AK and club A with blackwood. And if partner lacks the club ACE, he will have to have the club KING (or stiff) before you go past 4H's. Far from confusing partner, your 3H bid tells him to give you exactly the information you need before continuing. If he has the club ACE, as you suppose, you will hear either a 3S Call (spade King)...where you can bid 3NT (serious 3NT) to give him a chance to show the ACE, or he will bid 4C over 3H to show, a) no spade king and club ACE, King, singleton, or void. HAving discovered if clubs are under control now you can use 4NT (and if they are not, you can stop safely in 4H). So you like to blast with these hands... go right ahead. Sometimes they will lead a spade even when you are off two club tricks, but I prefer the more comfortable way.

Ben

[luis]

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What do you want to explore?

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I want to make sure that my partner has a CLUB control BEFORE I commit to slam (small opposite two key cards). I assure you, I am bidding seven opposite 3 just fine. The three heart bid give us two suit trump agreement, so when I eventually use BLACKWOOD (assuming partner can cue-bid clubs), we will still get to seven. In addition, we get to six when he has a) two controls, and a club control.

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With AK of d and the cA you play 7h without one of them you play 6, without two you play 5 and ask pd to open reasonable hands.

I consider S-KQJ H-Qxxxx D-AKJ C-QJ very reasonable. Your way gets you to six hearts off one on a club lead. My way stops in 4H without giving up on six. I consider,
Kx QT9xxx AJT C-QJ not quite so reasonable, but my way stops savely in 4H, while your way gets you to 5H and loses two club on the lead and has only 50-50 chance of making 5H (must find diamond king).

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So what is the purpose of 3h ? It will only be useful to confuse pd about what keycards are the ones that you need.

Sorry luis. The purpose of the game forcing 3H bid is starting a cue-bidding sequence is EXACTLY what this hand needs after the 3D raise. It allows you to find out about the CLUB control BEFORE you commit the hand above 4H's with blackwood. With two suit trump agreement, you can still find out about the DIAMOND-AK and club A with blackwood. And if partner lacks the club ACE, he will have to have the club KING (or stiff) before you go past 4H's. Far from confusing partner, your 3H bid tells him to give you exactly the information you need before continuing. If he has the club ACE, as you suppose, you will hear either a 3S Call (spade King)...where you can bid 3NT (serious 3NT) to give him a chance to show the ACE, or he will bid 4C over 3H to show, a) no spade king and club ACE, King, singleton, or void. HAving discovered if clubs are under control now you can use 4NT (and if they are not, you can stop safely in 4H). So you like to blast with these hands... go right ahead. Sometimes they will lead a spade even when you are off two club tricks, but I prefer the more comfortable way.

Ben

Yeah, thats why I supossed you are afraid of losing 2 clubs.
That was my point, with this particular hand I disagree with the idea of looking for a club control.... Even without cAK the slam is very good since you will go down only if the opening leader has both the cA and the cK.
In hands were a slam is not so evident I'm 100% for your approach, I just think this hand is too slamish to bother about the club control. Just a personal theory :-)

[inquiry]

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Even without cAK the slam is very good since you will go down only if the opening leader has both the cA and the cK.

I actually disagree with the premise that you will only get a club lead if opening leader has both the club ACE and King. For one thing, they are going to lead a black suit for sure. So you stand roughly a 50-50 chance for a club lead. And against this double fit auction, I would certainly not hesitate to lead away from a king, and I might well underlead an ace to put you to the test at trick one if you (dummy) had Kx of clubs. But no matter, I will avoid slam off two top clubs, and that is good enough for me.

[luis]

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Even without cAK the slam is very good since you will go down only if the opening leader has both the cA and the cK.

I actually disagree with the premise that you will only get a club lead if opening leader has both the club ACE and King. For one thing, they are going to lead a black suit for sure. So you stand roughly a 50-50 chance for a club lead. And against this double fit auction, I would certainly not hesitate to lead away from a king, and I might well underlead an ace to put you to the test at trick one if you (dummy) had Kx of clubs. But no matter, I will avoid slam off two top clubs, and that is good enough for me.

That's what YOU would do, but for the stats what counts is what happens in average. Anyway respectable position, more than mine but I take the chances. It's a matter of strategy.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Luis and all 2DI bidders!
A)Original from post
S: A
H: AKJXX
D: QXXXX
C: XX

2 examples of opening hand

C)
KQJx QJx
Qxxxx Qxxxx
x Kxx
Axx Ax

Now Luis, can you see how you can miss slam in and bid wrong one with C)?
Misho

[luis]

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Hi Luis and all 2DI bidders!
A)Original from post
S: A
H: AKJXX
D: QXXXX
C: XX

2 examples of opening hand

C)
KQJx QJx
Qxxxx Qxxxx
x Kxx
Axx Ax

Now Luis, can you see how you can miss slam in and bid wrong one with C)?
Misho

No I can't Misho :-)
I was talking abuout 1h-2d;3d.
Hand can't support diamonds with a singleton :-)
Hand c) can't support diamonds either but if it does what is the problem with 6h ?
Asking for key cards in diamonds doesn't mean we are going to play in diamonds.

[inquiry]

Let me make a change in Misho's hands to the ones I suggested earlier, using his format.
Hi Luis and all 2DI bidders!
A)Original from post
S: A
H: AKJXX
D: QXXXX
C: XX

2 examples of opening hand

C)
KQJ Kx
QT9xx QT9xx
AKJ AJT
xx QJx

Now Luis, can you see how you can play slam in B off two top clubs, and C) play in 5H needing a diamond hook to make in C)?
Ben

[mishovnbg]

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Pd, as the dealer, opened 1H, you hold:
S: A
H: AKJXX
D: QXXXX
C: XX

What do you bid? Rank the following three bid:
a) 3S(splinter)
2d(two over one), planning to raise pd later
c) Jacoby 2N

I think I will disagree with many posters here since I would bid a 2/1 2d with this hand. Game in hearts is a certainty so the only goal of this hand is to explore slam chances, I think that in order to be able to explore for slam chances we must show we have a diamond suit.

Imagine pd supports our 2d bid with 3d. Now we bid 3s and pd cuebids 4c. Now an RKCB bid in diamonds (not hearts) is what we need to find out if we can win a grand in hearts, if pd has AK of diamonds and the cA.

I can't imagine anything bad happening after a 1h-2d (GF) start.

Luis

My post was about imagination ;D. 6HE is also bad contract in C) still 2 DI losers or may be I need better glasses 8)? In D) you will not receive support in DI and it is sure way to miss slam! If you cue bid in DI suit with singleton, I will give to responder AQxxx in DI and you will play bad 7HE contract probably. Bids please ?
Misho

Misho

[luis]

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Let me make a change in Misho's hands to the ones I suggested earlier, using his format.
Hi Luis and all 2DI bidders!
A)Original from post
S: A
H: AKJXX
D: QXXXX
C: XX

2 examples of opening hand

C)
KQJ Kx
QT9xx QT9xx
AKJ AJT
xx QJx

Now Luis, can you see how you can play slam in B off two top clubs, and C) play in 5H needing a diamond hook to make in C)?
Ben

I said I was taking the risk. I don't care about c) and I like the chances of the slam in .
Are we talking about a bridge decision or pure bidding theory? If this is bidding theory youare right and the artistic bids are needed. If this is a bridge decision you should play the slam , the idea is to win imps not bidding awards.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Luis!
In my opinion all start from the strategy and the tactic. My play at table is only extension of early developed and prepared "essence " of it. For the games is better in most cases just to bid or not to bid them, because they can be based on low chances ststisticaly and is near impossible with the available space to investigate them. Bidding directly on other side give you additional chances for wrong lead. This mean you must bid low informative bridge for games - look NTC .
Things are generally different for slams. There you must be as most informative as possible, because you lose game with unsuccessful slam. It is true sometimes you can give to opp information for successful lead, but it is risk you must accept, else is better to play poker ;D
Exception is psyche bids, but they cant be regular and only establish rule - science bidding for slams.
Misho

[luis]

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Hi Luis!
In my opinion all start from the strategy and the tactic. My play at table is only extension of early developed and prepared "essence " of it. For the games is better in most cases just to bid or not to bid them, because they can be based on low chances ststisticaly and is near impossible with the available space to investigate them. Bidding directly on other side give you additional chances for wrong lead. This mean you must bid low informative bridge for games - look NTC .
Things are generally different for slams. There you must be as most informative as possible, because you lose game with unsuccessful slam. It is true sometimes you can give to opp information for successful lead, but it is risk you must accept, else is better to play poker ;D
Exception is psyche bids, but they cant be regular and only establish rule - science bidding for slams.
Misho

I think I'm being misunderstood. I'm not saying you have to gamble a slam on this hand. What I am saying is that there're good chances for a grand slam and the most simple way to find a grand carries the risk of ending up in a not cold six since you don't know about clubs. As I said I was willing to take that risk.

[mishovnbg]

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I think I'm being misunderstood. I'm not saying you have to gamble a slam on this hand. What I am saying is that there're good chances for a grand slam and the most simple way to find a grand carries the risk of ending up in a not cold six since you don't know about clubs. As I said I was willing to take that risk.

The science bidding exists to avoid risks, friend 8)! Better developed system - less risks. As I posted 2DI is not good response, because of bad suit which need 2 filling values and even Ax in DI is bad, because still loser in DI, even enough 4KC for slam.
Misho

[mikestar]

2DI wll cause partner to think that Ax will soildify the diamonds, 3SP will make him think the King is worthless. Jacoby won't get you enough info unless you play a sophisticated relay version (then use it).

Parner won't know how to value his cards, so just shoot 6HE! I make be cold, it may make on a wrong opening lead, it may induce a phantom save if fourth hand is long in spades. To my mind, these last two possibilites together are much more likely than missing a cold grand.

[keylime]

S: A
H: AKJXX
D: QXXXX
C: XX

Too bad it's a 2/1 question...I'd start with 1NT forcing in Key Lime to see what opener REALLY has. Alas, it isn't KLP. If I hit pard's likely 4 clubs, then slam starts to look decent. If I hit 4 diamonds, then I really like life, and can make a neat ask for pard's remainder. If I hit a balanced hand by 2H, then I can proceed more carefully.

2/1 wise, splinter is unilaterally wrong, it doesn't give an accurate picture of the hand. Furthermore, you don't need much from pard to make small slam, you know the heart suit is terribly weak...

Which is why you can't bid a G/F raise either! What happens if pard logically bids 4H? Now you dare not make a bid here...

My choice, least of all evils, 2D. If we hear 2S, then the stiff ace looks REALLY golden. If we hear 3C, then the doubleton isn't bad. If we hear support, lovely...the two bids I fear are 2H and 2NT. What is 2NT in 2/1 like this? That's been argued a lot, and many have their own pet interpretations on it. That I'll leave for others to discuss.

[luke warm]

i guess i got lost somewhere... what's the problem with
1H : 2D ?

what can go wrong? if pard bid 3D, fine, bid 4D minorwood... if he bids anything else, bid 3H.. now everything is in place for serious 3NT and/or cuebidding..

what am i missing?

[inquiry]

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i guess i got lost somewhere... what's the problem with
1H : 2D ?

what can go wrong? if pard bid 3D, fine, bid 4D minorwood... if he bids anything else, bid 3H.. now everything is in place for serious 3NT and/or cuebidding..

what am i missing?

Hi Jimmy, you have missed nothing. This is the total of the votes so far....

Splinter = 0 votes, no one voted for the splinter bid
Jacoby = 2 sound votes
2Diamond = 7 votes.

So among the splinter/2over1/jacoby replies, splinter is a clear loser, and 2D is a heavy favorite.

A few people wanted to go a different way. Dwayne preferred a game forcing keylime exploration auction beginning with 1NT response but when forced to choose bid 2D, and two other people favored either an artificial game force 2C response (clearly not one of the requested auctions...but if you play that it should work well), and the other a creative "bid what you think can make" jump to 6H's.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Nov 24 2003, 03:21 PM, said:

Peter's and Misho's post about the quality of the diamond suit is a point well taken. Yzerman posted here a long time ago a reasonable requirement for a 2 over 1 response being a "biddable" suit. His definition of "biddable" was a suit that CAN be playable opposite 3 small for 2 losers assuming 3/2 break in suit ("Hence Qxxxx is not biddable, Q10xxx is biddable").

Also Fred Gitelman in his "Improving 2/1 GF" articles specifically mentions exactly a suit like Qxxxx: he says that responder should better NOT show that suit, if he has a reasonable alternative; according to Fred, the 2/1 suit should be a source of tricks, hence better than that.

I like this agreement on the suit quality and based on that I'd chose, as a reasonable alternative, J2NT or any other forcing raise which does not promise diamonds.

Splintering with stiff Ace does not seem at all a good choice.

[Cascade]

I notice that every continuation in this thread assumes that the opponents remain silent.

We have a 10-card fit and responder's hand has two week suits why would you assume that the opponents will give you a free run in the remainder of the auction.

1♥ Pass 2♦ 4♠
...

could leave you badly placed.

[luke warm]

if 1H (p) 2D (4S) i imagine partner will pass and i'll just bid 6H then

[Cascade]

i imagine that 6♥ will fail a fair proportion of the time for example when you are missing two Aces or you suffer a side suit ruff.

Some of the time your partner will double 4♠. Then you will be guessing to show your excellent heart support at the five-level. I prefer to show my heart support earlier unless I will know what to do at the five-level later.