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Discard method in the midgame

#1 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2003-November-21, 11:52

NOt many books on defense discuss this topic in depth. The discussion about the last board of the BB final showed even top players may not agree with each other. Anyone here know the completely right discardng sequence in the mid game? Suppse you are going to discard 7542 of hearts on the running of a long suit by declarer. what is the right order? Doesnt it matter if declaer is declarering 7N or 3N? Should you discard 2 first, showing no interest on it, then 3, showing the count of remaining card? Or discard 7 frist, showing the count, then 5,4 or 2, telling pd what you can guard?
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#2 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2003-November-21, 12:23

Mi vision is that the longer you play with your pd the more complex your agreements should be abuot this topic.
Let's see what I mean:
If you are playing with a pickup pd you can agree on "lvinthal" or "o/e" discards. Then your discards from the posted situation will show just interest or lack of interest in the suit being discarded.
So I think the 1st step is how to show interest or lack of interest when dicarding.
Then there's a more advanced agreement: multiple discards in the same suit. You have 7652 as you posted, you have to discard 3 times, it should be different to discard "762" or "265" etc....
If the first discard shows interest in the suit then you have to agree what your subsequent discards will show, I think you should show suit preference, indicating a suit that you will guard or a suit where you have values. Example playin low=discourage
2-5-6 (= interest in higher suit)
2-6-5 (= interest in lower suit)
Playing o/e it would be the same, the first card shows your attitude towards the suit being discarded and the next 2 cards are a suit preference echo.
But this can be even more complex.
In some situations you will not want to show interest/lack of interest in the suit, for example if declarer is playing a slam contract. Then you can agree to show values or count depending on what you prefer to do with your pd, in my opinion this 3rd level is the highest, because it defines what are your signals depending on the situation being analized.
Wow, a lot for just some discards :-)
The legend of the black octogon.
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Posted 2003-November-21, 13:10

NOt many books on defense discuss this topic in depth. The discussion about the last board of the BB final showed even top players may not agree with each other.

  • Anyone here know the completely right discardng sequence in the mid game?


Yes, I know exactly the complete and final rule on right discarding sequence in the mid-game. I will share my secret with you at the end of this reply.

  • Count first or suit preference first? And does level of contract matter.


What really counts is what does your partner need to know, and when does he need to know it. If your parner will be put the test (have to make the critical play) on the very next trick, you better make sure your discard provides whatever information he needs to know. If you have plenty of time to use elaborate and subtle signals, that is different.

Here are my general rules for this situation.

  • If partner is out of the hand (your signals will have no effect on his play), don't give meaningful signals, but don't always lie either. More or less random signals are best. If you always lie, it is as bad for you as if you always tell the truth :-)
  • In most circumstances, my first discard is Lavinthal, indicating suit preference between the other two suits.
  • If I have to discard from the suit I actually prefer, then I generally make a discard that looks like preference to a suit that I can not really have a preference for.
  • After my suit preference signal, my next discard is often legnth (I use udca remaining count). Clearly there is no need to signal legnth if your partner already knows how many you have by any of a number of mechanism... obvious from bidding, obvious as declarer has shown out, obvious because of lack of apply LOTT in a competitive situation, etc


Now the real secret to the the completely right discardng sequence in the mid game... ask yourself what would Ben do, and then do the opposite... I never get these things right.

Ben
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#4 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2003-November-21, 15:03

Quote

NOt many books on defense discuss this topic in depth. The discussion about the last board of the BB final showed even top players may not agree with each other.

  • Anyone here know the completely right discardng sequence in the mid game?


Yes, I know exactly the complete and final rule on right discarding sequence in the mid-game. I will share my secret with you at the end of this reply.

  • Count first or suit preference first? And does level of contract matter.


What really counts is what does your partner need to know, and when does he need to know it. If your parner will be put the test (have to make the critical play) on the very next trick, you better make sure your discard provides whatever information he needs to know. If you have plenty of time to use elaborate and subtle signals, that is different.

Here are my general rules for this situation.

  • If partner is out of the hand (your signals will have no effect on his play), don't give meaningful signals, but don't always lie either. More or less random signals are best. If you always lie, it is as bad for you as if you always tell the truth :-)
  • In most circumstances, my first discard is Lavinthal, indicating suit preference between the other two suits.
  • If I have to discard from the suit I actually prefer, then I generally make a discard that looks like preference to a suit that I can not really have a preference for.
  • After my suit preference signal, my next discard is often legnth (I use udca remaining count). Clearly there is no need to signal legnth if your partner already knows how many you have by any of a number of mechanism... obvious from bidding, obvious as declarer has shown out, obvious because of lack of apply LOTT in a competitive situation, etc


Now the real secret to the the completely right discardng sequence in the mid game... ask yourself what would Ben do, and then do the opposite... I never get these things right.

Ben



Hehe, I guess even top players are not 100% sure how it should be. Regarding Lavinthal, I personally think it is not such a great tool. Its problem is that you are forced to show your preference. Whatever you discard, pd will take it serious. Sometimes you can only discard from a long suit and this suit is the one you hope pd could lead if he has chance. In this case pd will do sth u dont like for sure.
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Posted 2003-November-22, 08:43

The way i use signals, is Italian: odd = encouraging, even = discouraging with lavintal signal (high odd followed by low odd is discouraging, normally with no suit or unable to show a suit with even cards). I haven't had much problems with it, and since i'm playing Obvious switch next to that, one player might be released from discarding italian.

So in this case, we show suit preference first, and count later if it will be necessary. In slam contracts its usually not good to give away too many info, so there we don't always use this discard method.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
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