[flytoox]

play with pickup pd, you hold:
S: XX
H: KJ9X
D: T87XX
C: AX

W N E S
P
P 1D P 1H
P 2S P 3D
P 3N P 4C
P 4N P P
P

Pd has:
S: AKQX
H: X
D: AKJXX
C: KXX


Also, pls mark these three bids after 4c
a) 4d
4s
c) 4N

[pricci]

Quote

play with pickup pd, you hold:
S: XX
H: KJ9X
D: T87XX
C: AX

W N E S
P
P 1D P 1H
P 2S P 3D
P 3N P 4C
P 4N P P
P

Pd has:
S: AKQX
H: X
D: AKJXX
C: KXX


Also, pls mark these three bids after 4c
a) 4d
4s
c) 4N

hi
my opinion:

4d = accept slam try, pls p go on with cuebid
4s = very good your club's cue but 2 loosers in hearts by me
4nt = not forcing RKC/BLW, can be passed with minimum hand

after:

.......4c
4d - 4h/s
4nt = RKC/BLW forcing

or:

.......4c
4d/h/s - 4nt = RKC/BLW forcing

bye

pino ricci

[inquiry]

Quote

play with pickup pd, you hold:
S: XX
H: KJ9X
D: T87XX
C: AX

W N E S
P
P 1D P 1H
P 2S P 3D
P 3N P 4C
P 4N P P
P

Pd has:
S: AKQX
H: X
D: AKJXX
C: KXX


Also, pls mark these three bids after 4c
a) 4d
4s
c) 4N

Playing with a pickup partner everything 4NT is blackwood. The reason is that a) they will think it is even if they don't normally play it as blackwood on any specific sequence, and try to keep the bidding simple with pick up partners. Last night I held AT8x AQ9x void KJ7xx

Bidding--- 1C-1D-1H-1S-3S-4N (clearly blackwood), did I bid the "correct 5NT (two and a void?), of course not, not with a pickup partner, I showed two and we played the cold 6NT versus the sure down one 6S and it was matchpoints in case you could squeek out 6S.

In your auction, perhaps you might want to play 4NT is sure I reverse, and sure you made a slam try with 4C, but I have a mini-reverse (say 17), so proceed at your own risk. But there is another problem here with a pick up partner. Your partner in all likelyhood meant 4C as GERBER and your 4NT showed 3 aces (out of 4, out of 5?). Maybe he was thinking 3 is not enough out of five and he stops.

As for ranking the bids...

4NT seems safe as partner will never pass this as it is "blackwood"... whoops, a slip of the ship :-)

4D is certainly ok, as 3D followed by 4C is slam try. You seem very happy to move towards slam with your hand, 4D to see what partner has in addition to his announced club ace.

4S is not so useful to a partner who might be looking at a Q high heart suit, surely he would no longer want to cooperate if you bypass a 4H cue here.

The main problems with each of these bids is that an unknown pickup partner might shock you and pass. Can you imagine bidding only 4D and having partner pass, or worse yet 4H to hear the same (GACK), or in this case your 4NT blackwood getting passed.

Seeling all the hands, it is easy to bid 6D, but this is what south should probably bid anyway. He is staring at a great diamond suit, a no loser spade suit opposite a known diamnd fit, a max of one heart loser, and clearly no club losers after the cue-bid. Leave science here for the experienced partnerships. Your partner invited you to slam and you hold a lot better hand than you could have for your reverse and then retreat to 3NT. Blast away to 6D... avoid random pick partner confusion when the hand is so clear cut.

[bhugi]

Quote

Quote

play with pickup pd, you hold:
S: XX
H: KJ9X
D: T87XX
C: AX

W N E S
P
P 1D P 1H
P 2S P 3D
P 3N P 4C
P 4N P P
P

Pd has:
S: AKQX
H: X
D: AKJXX
C: KXX


Also, pls mark these three bids after 4c
a) 4d
4s
c) 4N

hi
my opinion:

4d = accept slam try, pls p go on with cuebid
4s = very good your club's cue but 2 loosers in hearts by me
4nt = not forcing RKC/BLW, can be passed with minimum hand

after:

.......4c
4d - 4h/s
4nt = RKC/BLW forcing

or:

.......4c
4d/h/s - 4nt = RKC/BLW forcing

bye

pino ricci

4NT is sure RKCB with unfamiliar partner.
3NT is to play and your 4C cue bid suggest slam interest, and he co-operate to bid 4NT to ask for A and trump Q (his distribution doesn't required cue bid)
or if he lack some controls he will cue bid over 4C.

Your 4C bid run over the safe 3NT game level, you are ready to play in 5D if no slam.

law of first arrival
5D to play no slam interest
4D is invite on trump quality / let partner elaborate more
4H is cue bid heart
4S is cue bid spade

every side are ready to sign off 5D if control as missing

[pricci]

I not agree with the rule that 4NT with a not regular p is always BLW/RKC. Maybe is the overcall of 4NT over 4H barrage BLW? or is 1NT - 4NT forcing?
After a 3NT closed bid, a 4NT (with a lot of bids available) cant be a BLW

pino ricci

[luis]

Quote

play with pickup pd, you hold:
S: XX
H: KJ9X
D: T87XX
C: AX

W N E S
P
P 1D P 1H
P 2S P 3D
P 3N P 4C
P 4N P P
P

Pd has:
S: AKQX
H: X
D: AKJXX
C: KXX


Also, pls mark these three bids after 4c
a) 4d
4s
c) 4N

A player that bids 3NT to play cannot bid 4NT RKCB in hist next turn, I think that is a golden rule. So 4N is just a rejection of the slam try wanting to play 4N.

3N is a terrible bid opener can ask with 4N making this as easy as it should be. I really hate when the auction gets complex just because.

[flytoox]

Quote

A player that bids 3NT to play cannot bid 4NT RKCB in hist next turn, I think that is a golden rule. So 4N is just a rejection of the slam try wanting to play 4N.

Luis, is this a wildly accepted rule or just ur convention with ur pd? I do like this though.

[luis]

Quote

Quote

A player that bids 3NT to play cannot bid 4NT RKCB in hist next turn, I think that is a golden rule. So 4N is just a rejection of the slam try wanting to play 4N.

Luis, is this a wildly accepted rule or just ur convention with ur pd? I do like this though.

I think it is one of those things that you have to discuss with your pd. It is one of the things in my "new pd questionnaire", when I bid 3N to play: a 3N bid that can be passed then 4x by pd is a slam try (unless it is a correction of the contract to 4M). So when pd makes a slam try I think that 4N rejects the slam try, if you want to accept the slam try you bid something different than 4N. Why? Because it would be very difficult to handle the auction the other way around. If 4N is RKCB then when you don't want to play slam what do you bid? 4x? And is pd then expected to bid 4N? Worst, if you do want to accept the slam but don't want to ask for aces what do you do? Is your only option to accept the slam asking aces? That would be a poor approach.
Eventually someone may step up and define that the meanings of 4N, and different 4x bids depend on the auction, I will strongly disagree since it is impossible to prepare for all the possible auctions that will lead to a 3N bid followed by a 4x slam try, you may have a minor suit fit, a major suit fit, no fit stablished, a double fit, etc. While I'd agree that ad-hoc solutions for each situation is the optimal way to go I think that a meta-solution covering any auction is better to be remembered and used without accidents. My meta-agreement is simple:

"When I bid 3N to play a 4x cuebid is a slam-try, 4N rejects the slam and is to-play, other bids accept the slam invitation and are cooperative"

I think that bidding 4N to play and 4x as cooperative is the best solution to this problem since now pd can ask with 4NT if he wants and it is clear that 4N is blackwood once pd makes a slam try and you accept.

Luis

[inquiry]

Quote

Quote

Luis, is this a wildly accepted rule or just ur convention with ur pd? I do like this though.

I agree with Luis, in this situation, I take this 4NT as the 3NT bidder didn't get excited by the 4x slam try. 4NT is not a signoff, but it is not blackwood (see my post above where I said this 4NT is a "proceed at your own risk" bid. I think this what Luis is refering too here.

However, having said that is what this bid means, to use it as such with a pick up partner is very risky. With a pick up partner with whom you never have played, but you are aware by reputation etc, you should probably apply the rule Luis suggest (and I generally play), but with a random pickup partner, never. They will ALWAYS play 4NT as blackwood. Even 1NT-4NT, or 1C-1NT-4NT. (EXCEPTION OF COURSE, with a pick up partner who proves to be an expert level, revert to normal bids for these 4NT things).

[EricK]

Quote

play with pickup pd, you hold:
S: XX
H: KJ9X
D: T87XX
C: AX

W N E S
P
P 1D P 1H
P 2S P 3D
P 3N P 4C
P 4N P P
P

Pd has:
S: AKQX
H: X
D: AKJXX
C: KXX


Also, pls mark these three bids after 4c
a) 4d
4s
c) 4N

I would say that 4NT isn't Blackwood. A general rule is that if a minor suit has been agreed, and one of the players has bid 3NT to play, then he has to have a way to play in 4NT if his hand is really unsuitable for slam.

Here, I think his hand is quite suitable for slam, and so should bid 4D to see what partner can do.

I often see people say things like "With a pick up partner 4NT is always Blackwood". I hate this sort of attitude, because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Bridge logic dictates that this 4NT is natural. If partner bid it, I would rather pay him the compliment of assuming he knew what he was doing and pass, than assume he didn't and show Aces. If he thought it was natural but still bid it as Blackwood because he thought I would take it as Blackwood, I would feel quite insulted.

Eric