[Apollo81]

IMPs, favorable, 3rd seat

♠ ---
♥ Q7653
♦ J64
♣ K8654

1♦-(1♠)-Dbl-(2♦)-
2♥-(pass)-????

[inquiry]

I will assume opponents 2♦ bid was some sort of constructive spade raise?

I am not stopping short of game, and I actually have the mildest of slam ambition. If the club king was the diamond king (-- Qxxxx KJx xxxxx) I would have stronger slam ambitions.

Evaluate the hand anyway you want.. LOTT (we have 9 card heart fit, they have at least 9 card spade fit, and I have a useful void in their suit). FTL Partner has four hearts, and probably (but not certain) no more than 2C. That is SST=2, I have 6 working points, and partner rates to have about 10 WP at a minimum here. That comes to 16. 13-2 = 11. 16 is just one level short of the 19-21 so subtract one level, says 10 tricks. ZAR. We have a superfit. I have 22 straight ZAR points, 3 points for spade void and extra heart is 25. One more for diamond jack. Our suit differences for misfit points will be high. If partner is 3433 (I doubt it on this auction), it would be 3+2 = five. More likely he is 3-4-4-2 or 3-4-5-1. This gives you a difference of 3+1+4 or 3+2+3 = 8. Either way, partners min of 26 for opening, and yours with superfit says bid game.

The only problem here, the opponents will bid 4S over a leap to 4H. You need to help partner decide rather to bid on or defend. Since they are vulnerable, it is less likely they will take a save, but 4C as a fit jump is one possibility. 3S as a splinter is another. I think, however, given the vulnerability, I will simply bid 4H.

[whereagles]

The hand deserves a shot at 4♥, but that requires an alert pard, who can listen to the bidding and notice opps also have some hcp. That way he won't double 4♠ automatically.

If pard is alert, 4♥. Otherwise I'd walk the dog and pass(!) hoping to bid 4♥ later.

[han]

I'd bid 4C, a fit bid in case they bid 4S over 4H.

[Double !]

4H is practical but unlikely to help P if the opps bid 4S unless P's spades are good enough to double. 4C is the bid i would make with some partners, but..
The bid that i would really like to be able to make (or invent) but am not sure how it would be interpreted is 3 spades to show the shortness. However, my concern is that most people would expect a lot more for this bid....so, 4C for me if playing the convention.

DHL

[P_Marlowe]

4H, game try.

The main problem with 3H is,
that over 4S I am in forcing
pass, which is not what I
really want.

And I will certainly not sell
out to 3S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

I like 3H and I'll tell you why.

The opponents have 9 or 10 spades between them. Pard has anywhere from 3 to 5 diamonds. A plausible spectrum of hands for pard is:

KQxx
Jxxx
AQx
Xx

to:

Axxx
AKxx
QTxxx
---

I'm more inclined to put pard on the 1st rather than the 2nd.

Even on this round of bidding pard can anticipate our spade shortage and make an agressive move with worthless spade length - even with a dead minimum. Wouldn't you trot out at least 3H with: Jxxx, AKxx, Axxx, x? I would.

How do you like your chances in 4H opposite a weak NT type hand with wasted spades? I don't.

If 4H is right, pard will bid it over the impending 3S call on my left.

[mikeh]

Lots of meat on this bone.

I bid 4♥ and think it to be clear.

Let's look at some of the ideas previously expressed:

P Marlowe suggests that 3♥ creates a forcing pass situation should the opps bid 4♠. I disagree. 3♥ carries with it NO forcing connotation: it hardly commits us to the 4-level and as such cannot create a 4-level force.

This is, I think, a common view in FP scenarios but I go further.

Others have suggested that a fit 4♣ would be nice, but have recognized that partner might misunderstand. In any event, whether it shows a fit, or shortness, or a long suit without primary ♥, it in my view ABSOLUTELY establishes a forcing pass situation, since it does force us to the 4-level: to at least 4♥ in my view.

Besides which, if I have a gf ♥ hand, on power, I can always bid 2♠ and then signoff in 4♥. Given that the vul opps have shown strength, and partner has limited his hand, bridge logic tells us that 2♠ is not necessarily a slam try. The need to jump to game on these weak hands is not rare... and thus logically we need a device to allow us to tell partner if we are bidding on power...we need to establish a FP situation... or on playing strength, as here.

The other reasons for 3♥ are advanced as 3♥ being the limit of the hand on some layouts and 4♥ being too likely to push the opps into game on others.

In terms of the first, it is true that there are many layouts on which game fails. But there are others on which it has a good play and on which partner may not appreciate the values of his hand. Thus, if he has some length and some modest wastage in ♠, he may be concerned that we have only an 8 card fit... and while he will usually be able to assume shortness in ♠, that's not the same as assuming a void. Even not vulnerable, the game bonus is worth a gamble. In addition, 4♥ may be a good save (winning 1 imp even if doubled down 1) against 140 or more.

In terms of the second fear... that the opps will be pushed into a making 4♠, I have even less worry.

It may be OUR hand. Give partner a nondescript 13 count such as QJ10x Axxx AQx xx and we may be taking 2 trumps, a ♥, 2♦ and a ♣...admittedly, we could easily lose at least one of these tricks in the play... but I wouldn't mind defending 4♠ doubled on this layout. And that is not a 'magical' hand for him. The more he has in ♠, the more conservative he will be in a partial misfit auction, when he has no reason to expect a 5 card ♥ suit opposite.

I would not invite game as opener on KJ109 Axxx AQx xx because the ♥ suit lacks texture and the ♠ strength is not an offensive feature... but I sure know what to say over 4♠... give advancer the ♠Q, and we may be collecting 1100!

Of course, that hand and both the layout required for 1100 and the possibility that the opps would be foolish enough to give me the chance are all remote... but I hope we can see that our fear of this being the opps hand is perhaps a trifle exaggerated

Bear in mind that Lho did not bounce to 4♠ and did not make some kind of 3-level cue, so he rates to have just a good raise, not a distributional hand, and rho PASSED over 2♥ when he surely did not need much to muster up 2♠.

So not only might S be passing 4♥, but he might be volunteering a number if he bids.

Bear in mind, also, my proposition that 4♥ carries no FP inference, and we can happily pass a double by partner if lho bids. And if they are cold for game, do we really think that we can talk them out of bidding 4♠ by anything that we do or don't do now?

[Winstonm]

A direct 4H applies the maximum pressure and allows partner to judge whether to pass, double, or bid on. 4H here must surely be a weakish distributional hand as with a good hand 2S is available to create a forcing pass.

If I bid 4H now, I don't have to guess what to do later and can pass having told my tale.

[mcphee]

4H 100% clear for me I would not give any other bid any consideration. If partner doubles 4S he is on his own and has no expectations from my hand defensively.

For those who feel jumping in C as fit showing, I do not think this is the sort of suit you make fit showing jumps with. Fit showing jumps are to show a suit that is a source of possible tricks to help partner see that losers are covered. This type of suit for me establishs that what ever small cards he had are still losers as the KC is a complete unknown value.

I also agree that we are not talking the opps out of bidding 4S if they have the values.

[SoTired]

Pass is cute. LHO will surely bid 2S or 3S. Then 4H shows a weak, distributional hand. I would expect more strength from an immediate 4H bid and 3H is too wimpy. Pass and then 4H also has the psychological hit if 4H makes and LHO could have passed us out in 2H.

I am not sure I would take 4C as a fit-jump. Even if it was interpreted as a game-forcing fit-jump, I would want much more strength for that bid.

[neilkaz]

I'll bid 4H, noting as others have, that I could bid 2S first if I had some real defensive values to show PD in his decision to whack 4S.

[joshs]

3H. Not even a close decision. I am not pushing the opps into game when I have so few high cards. A 3H bid takes away a jump to 3S, and does invite partner to bid 4H with a good 2H bid (in which case we might be able to beat 4S if they decide to bid it).

[kfgauss]

mikeh, on Jul 12 2006, 12:07 AM, said:

and rho PASSED over 2♥ when he surely did not need much to muster up 2♠.

Weren't you of the opinion in my thread that pass over a double of 2♦ shows extras? Why is this different (we're still below 2♠)?

(I'm not necessarily taking issue with your conclusions on this hand, just trying to clear up this murky situation.)

Of course, on this hand, we should be able to ask our opponents how they play it.

Andy

[mikeh]

kfgauss, on Jul 12 2006, 08:09 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 12 2006, 12:07 AM, said:

and rho PASSED over 2♥ when he surely did not need much to muster up 2♠.

Weren't you of the opinion in my thread that pass over a double of 2♦ shows extras? Why is this different (we're still below 2♠)?

(I'm not necessarily taking issue with your conclusions on this hand, just trying to clear up this murky situation.)

Of course, on this hand, we should be able to ask our opponents how they play it.

Andy

We are speaking of different auctions. After the cue bid advance gets doubled, passing out the auction is impossible: the overcalling side is not about to play in the cue bid.

After opener bids 2♥ over the cue bid, the force is off on the overcaller. So the bid of 2♠ after the double can (and usually is, at least in my part of the world) played as the weak bid.

But after the 2♥, again in my part of the world, overcaller can show the worst hand via pass, reserving 2♠ as a real overcall, albeit not a strong hand.

Could one play the two situations identically? I can see why one might, but that is not the common expert approach in the Pacific NW of NA... and I can't really speak for elsewhere since, while I have played with and against a lot of players from elsewhere, I have not discussed nor recall seeing this auction on those occasions.

[kfgauss]

mikeh, on Jul 13 2006, 02:59 AM, said:

kfgauss, on Jul 12 2006, 08:09 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 12 2006, 12:07 AM, said:

and rho PASSED over 2♥ when he surely did not need much to muster up 2♠.

Weren't you of the opinion in my thread that pass over a double of 2♦ shows extras? Why is this different (we're still below 2♠)?

(I'm not necessarily taking issue with your conclusions on this hand, just trying to clear up this murky situation.)

Of course, on this hand, we should be able to ask our opponents how they play it.

Andy

We are speaking of different auctions. After the cue bid advance gets doubled, passing out the auction is impossible: the overcalling side is not about to play in the cue bid.

After opener bids 2♥ over the cue bid, the force is off on the overcaller. So the bid of 2♠ after the double can (and usually is, at least in my part of the world) played as the weak bid.

But after the 2♥, again in my part of the world, overcaller can show the worst hand via pass, reserving 2♠ as a real overcall, albeit not a strong hand.

Could one play the two situations identically? I can see why one might, but that is not the common expert approach in the Pacific NW of NA... and I can't really speak for elsewhere since, while I have played with and against a lot of players from elsewhere, I have not discussed nor recall seeing this auction on those occasions.

I've always played that 2♦ sets up a force through 2♠ and so you're not allowed to let them play 2♥. (If geography is of interest here, I've played in new england and northern california mostly.)

Andy

[mikeh]

Yes, but arguably there is an increased chance that responder will raise the level of the bidding after our sequence here: ie the 2♥ bid by opener, compared to the double of the cuebid. To the extent that that is true (and that is debatable), then we need the distinction between pass and a 'free' 2♠ to allow advancer to decide whether to compete over 3♥.

Thus pass of 2♥ says to advancer, if they bid 3♥, you are on your own: bid 3♠ only with extras. While a free 2♠ is more encouraging to competition.

I like this discussion, because, while I am comfortable that my approach represents a good part of standard expert treatment here, I had not previously analyzed why I treat these two somewhat similar sequences differently.

In fact, I am so intrigued that I will ask some friends of mine what they think.

[hatchett]

I would also play the pass of 2♥ as more encouraging than bidding 2♠.

Quote

Thus pass of 2♥ says to advancer, if they bid 3♥, you are on your own: bid 3♠ only with extras. While a free 2♠ is more encouraging to competition.

Surely it works the other way around as well

2♠ directly says you are on your own if they bid 3♥ and pass encourages competition.

But obviously you have to play it the other way round if pass over 2♥ is non forcing

[Blofeld]

I'd think that a double of 2♥ would be more useful as another bid distinguishing power/ODR than penalties, so you can throw what that should mean into the mix.

[zimzam]

LHO 2♦ bid is a invitational++ raise so 4♥ is obvious I think. If pd doesn't dbl 4S I'll sacrifice in 5 as well.