[kenrexford]

I think you missed the point. I believe the point was not to drop 4NT as RKCB. Rather, given a choice of either RKCB or Italian Cuebidding, the latter is much more valuable and therefore would be preferred. That choice never really exists. However, auctions with RKCB but not Italian Cuebidding are less manageable than would be auctions with Italian Cuebidding but no RKCB.

I agree.

[mike777]

I still argue that whatever gain there is in Italian style cuebids will be lost with the added confusion at the table, but feel free to try them out......really try them out....

I will stick with my lowlevel first round cuebids, very seldom use of second round cuebids and only cue bid at the higher level with voids or concerns over xx in a side suit. Yes that means using rkc a heck of alot.

[kenrexford]

Mike777 has correctly pointed out the one draw-back to Italian Cuebidding. Much of this style relies upon inference. The inference is absolute, in the sense that one can define the parameters of a given auction without reference to a given hand. But, the task of understanding these inferences is more daunting than simply knowing how many Aces one or one's partner holds. It is also of equal importance that the partnership has the same understanding of theory.

That being said, some bid on a "practical" level and some on a scientific level. If you want to maximize science, which is one necessary factor in maximizing results, then you do the homework and expect the same from partner.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Jul 13 2006, 04:14 PM, said:

I still argue that whatever gain there is in Italian style cuebids will be lost with the added confusion at the table, but feel free to try them out......really try them out....

I will stick with my lowlevel first round cuebids, very seldom use of second round cuebids and only cue bid at the higher level with voids or concerns over xx in a side suit.  Yes that means using rkc a heck of alot.

Try bidding this hand then:

Scoring: IMP

1S-2C
3C-3S
4S-?

---

I submit this could be bid this way:

1S-2C
3C-3S
4D-4H*
4N**-5S***
6S****

*Knowing diamonds are controlled North can afford to show the heart control with clubs controlled as well and a hand suitable for slam.

** The 5-level should be safe so RKCB
*** 2 + Q
**** Bingo

[mike777]

may make no difference on this hand but I really object to 2c with 4 card support and game force hand. Is this not why we play complicated game force major suit raises?


1s=2nt
4d=very good 13+, deny 17+, deny ace or king of clubs, deny void, deny stiff, but showing ace or King of D. Deny 14-16 with stoppers in all suits and 5 spades, deny good 15-17 2 suiter hand, deny good 6 card spade suit, etc.....

[inquiry]

mike777, on Jul 13 2006, 10:25 PM, said:

may make no difference on this hand but I really object to 2c with 4 card support and game force hand. Is this not why we play complicated game force major suit raises?


1s=2nt
4d=very good 13+, deny 17+, deny ace or king of clubs, deny void, deny stiff,  but showing ace or King of D.

BLEECK.... sorry, for me this hand is a 2C bid followed by a spade raise. I might be willing to accept the logic to use Jacoby with some hands with a side five card suit. But only if the five card suit was a real dog, and even then, most often not.

Auction given is typical, EXCEPT, here there was two suit agreement, so in reponse to 4NT responder should show 3 key cards (AK clubs, A of hearts). Then ask about queens, and find out about the spade queen.

[mike777]

At my level of play I can only tell you .....

I would show my Q8xx spade support at bid one.....This is why I agree to play complicated 2nt.....

I could not disagree with 2clubs any stronger....and sleep easy tonight

If you prefer 2clubs and Italian style cuebids....enjoy.....

This is a terrific hand to decide which style, both of which are decades and decades old, you prefer.

[kenrexford]

On the new example, my "typical" auction would be different. After 3S, Opener would bid 4C, a purely cooperative (non-Serious) cuebid of one of the top three club honors. Responder would then cue 4H, inferring a lack of a diamond control but serious slam interest nonetheless if Opener can cover diamonds. As such can be done, Opener uses 4NT RKCB.

I also echo the use of a 2C call first, for the very reason of the ensuing auction. 2NT gets you, often, a quantitative raise on a semi-balanced hand. With a side source of tricks, you need cues. Keep in mind that a simplistic approach suggests that a slam makes with a side five-card suit on about 26 HCP's, when one has A-K-Q in both suits and two Aces in the remaining suits. Hence, the solidity of the secondary suit is critical. Here, bidding 2C first allows the 4C cue, which is huge for Responder.

With AQJxx of clubs, the concern is somewhat lessened, because cuebidding a Queen need not be facilitated.

For example, assume a quantitative 3S after Jacoby 2NT. If you bid Serious 3NT, Opener can cue the club King, but not the Queen. After a Quantitative 3NT or 4S, no club cue at all is enabled, which is another problem. But, even after a big quantitative, the Queen cannot be cue'd. Thus, with AKJxx, missing the Queen, you want to stretch to introduce that suit.

I would take this even further. With AQx, only three cards in clubs, I might use Jacoby 2NT. Even this holding, however, allows me to cue clubs myself to show the two-honor holding. But, with AKx in clubs, 2C seems automatic, as it enables partner to cue the Queen later, a huge card.

One final thought on 2C. 2C as a response, even more so that 2D, allows great things if partner cannot raise clubs. Perhaps he bids 2D or 2H, the former (2D) possibly being a fragment for the reasons that follow. Facilitating a 2/1 GF auction where the major might be agreed at the two-level is invaluable. Ability to make a 2NT cue (whatever you agree this means) and an entire level of cuebidding gained, as well as a whole package of picture jumps, is enormously beneficial, whereas Jacoby 2NT preempts us mercilessly.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Jul 13 2006, 10:49 PM, said:

At my level of play I can only tell you .....

I would show my Q8xx spade support at bid one.....This is why I agree to play complicated 2nt.....

I could not disagree with 2clubs any stronger....and sleep easy tonight

If you prefer 2clubs and Italian style cuebids....enjoy.....

This is a terrific hand to decide which style, both of which are decades and decades old, you prefer.

Mike,

I happen to agree with you that for most the standard cue bidding style is probably best as it takes a high degree of partnership cooperation to bid otherwise - yet that is the beauty of Italian style - it is more like an art.

In the hand shown, another way to bid it would be this - and I used to bid this way so I have some experience.

1S-2C
3C-3S
4D-4H
4N*-5C**
5D***-5H****
6S

*General slam try. I have some extras tell me more.
** I have a good club suit
*** That's nice. What else you got?
**** Heart Ace.

I found it interesting that in the book "Blue Team Club" that Garozzo said about the 4N general slam try that the team's belief was that there were worse things that could happen than reaching slam off two Aces so they didn't worry about it.

As you see above, from 4N on it gets a little murky - which is probably why Garozzo and Belladonna reached 7C against Kantar/Eisenberg.

[Winstonm]

Quote

On the new example, my "typical" auction would be different. After 3S, Opener would bid 4C, a purely cooperative (non-Serious) cuebid of one of the top three club honors. Responder would then cue 4H, inferring a lack of a diamond control but serious slam interest nonetheless if Opener can cover diamonds. As such can be done, Opener uses 4NT RKCB.

In my regular partnership, I do this as well. 4C would be a non-serious try showing a "filler" card to see if clubs would provide a source of tricks.

[hrothgar]

Winstonm, on Jul 14 2006, 06:16 AM, said:

Try bidding this hand then:

As other folks in this thread have noted, the Italian first/second round cue bidding style is as much an art as a science. In particular, the meaning of the 4NT bid is often highly dependent on the rest of the auction. (Please note, if you're playing a 1st / 2nd round cue bididng style, you aren't required to give up RKCB. However, you rarely need to ask that specific question so most experienced pairs chose a more flexible definition)

With all this said and done, it should be noted that this cue bidding style evolved in the context of a very different family of bidding systems. The Italians had lots of gimmicks available to clarify controls, permitting very elegant slam explorations.

Scoring: IMP

---

Case in point, with the hand being discussed, the auction would start

1♠ - 2♣
2♠ - 4♣
4♦ - 4♥


2♣ shows 2+ Clubs, (might conceal a spae raise or canape reverse)
4♣ shows 2 Club controls and denies a diamond control
4♦ shows a first or second round Diamond control

[barmar]

kenrexford, on Jul 13 2006, 05:36 PM, said:

Mike777 has correctly pointed out the one draw-back to Italian Cuebidding. Much of this style relies upon inference. The inference is absolute, in the sense that one can define the parameters of a given auction without reference to a given hand. But, the task of understanding these inferences is more daunting than simply knowing how many Aces one or one's partner holds. It is also of equal importance that the partnership has the same understanding of theory.

This is true. Occasionally you make incorrect inferences. For instance, partner cues something, then you bid Blackwood and he shows 1 Ace. So you assume it's the one he cue bid earlier. But it turns out he was cue-bidding a King, and your picture of his hand is way off. Or you don't know how to value your singleton in the suit he bid -- it's great if he has the Ace, not so great if he only has the King.

But no bidding system is perfect -- if there were one, all the pros would be using it.

[willow23]

I go with aces first...you still know when a suit is open ...use nt as a meant of keeping the auction low when possible...

I like precision ...my system shows controls...a positive response promises 3+ controls ...so knowing there is a fit and about 10 controls ...using beta ask etc... takes some of the hassle out on most slam auctions...

[barmar]

I've been thinking about a two-way approach to this.

If you've agreed on a suit early enough that you can start cue-bidding on the 3 level, show first-round controls first. But if you're already at the 4 or 5 level, efficiency dictates that you show any controls.

[SoTired]

barmar, on Jul 24 2006, 09:03 AM, said:

If you've agreed on a suit early enough that you can start cue-bidding on the 3 level, show first-round controls first. But if you're already at the 4 or 5 level, efficiency dictates that you show any controls.

I think just the opposite is commonly accepted: If you are below game, q-bid both 1st or 2nd. That way you can sign off in 4M if you find an open suit and use RKC when you find that all suits are covered. If because of preempts or whatever, you find yourself above the game level, start q-bidding aces because you don't have RKC. Also, at this level, a king or singleton is not as critical as an ace. And you still have 5M to ask about control of the unbid suit.

[sfbp]

luke warm, on Jul 7 2006, 04:05 PM, said:

i guess i've been playing the italian way for so long i can't recall any other... but it just makes sense to me that if you skip a suit, you have no ace, king, stiff, or void in that suit... that alone can nip slam aspirations in the bud

Hmm I rather disagree with this. My approach is that I will bid the first cue in a suit as close as possible below the suit I care about, especially below game (above game it is usually more like a simple slam try - if pard likes my Ace or Void then he goes, otherwise not).

I'll give some examples later if you like - it's always clear to me at the table but I prefer to give you something that people cannot shoot at.

Suppose, anyway that you care about hearts, and you have both clubs and diamond controls - then I say the right bid is diamonds. Partner can still decline (eg if he doesnt like his hand) but now he knows what you care about. If you bid clubs he may be wide open in diamonds.

Partner ain't a robot - include him in the decision.

Stephen

[Codo]

sfbp, on Jul 25 2006, 02:09 AM, said:

Hmm I rather disagree with this. My approach is that I will bid the first cue in a suit as close as possible below the suit I care about, especially below game (above game it is usually more like a simple slam try - if pard likes my Ace or Void then he goes, otherwise not).

I'll give some examples later if you like - it's always clear to me at the table but I prefer to give you something that people cannot shoot at.

Suppose, anyway that you care about hearts, and you have both clubs and diamond controls - then I say the right bid is diamonds. Partner can still decline (eg if he doesnt like his hand) but now he knows what you care about. If you bid clubs he may be wide open in diamonds.

Partner ain't a robot - include him in the decision.

Stephen

I don´t see the advantage:

I bid my club control and pd knows: Hey pd wants to be in slam, but has a problem. Okay, I have a heart control, so I bid it. If pd had a diamond problem, he will stay out of the slam. If a heart control is what he needed, he will ask for aces.
This is quite simple.

In your style, you bid the suit below the suit you are interessted in, some kind of transfer asking bid... This works well, if you have the hand with two of three side suits controlled, but won´t work, if you have just one under control.
And pd cannot judge from your 4 Diamond bid if you have a control in clubs, so I think, that the downsides are much higher then the upside.

[zasanya]

Most experts in this illuminating thread have advised against cue bidding shortness in Partners suit.Could they elaborate on it?Would they cue bid A or K in Partner's suit?
Some others advise cue bidding even a Q in Partners suit.Do they have an agreement that cue bid in Partner's suit is always a high honor and never a shortage?

[Winstonm]

zasanya, on Jul 25 2006, 08:04 AM, said:

Most experts in this illuminating thread have advised against cue bidding shortness in Partners suit.Could they elaborate on it?Would they cue bid A or K in Partner's suit?
Some others advise cue bidding even a Q in Partners suit.Do they have an agreement that cue bid in Partner's suit is always a high honor and never a shortage?

Whether or not to cue bid in partner's suit depends greatly on the ramifications of bidding style. In other words, if partner can make a 2/1 on xxxx suit, then cue bidding shortness in that suit makes sense. The problem with this style, though, is shortness with no secondary length tricks means you have to rely on overwhelming high card strength to make slam or on ruffing your way to slam.

IMO, one is better served to adopt a style and system than precludes being forced to bid xxxxx type suits so that when a suit is bid, it represents a possible source of tricks - it is the double fit that makes under-strength slams possible more often than cross ruff tricks.

Therefore, after a 1S opening, if partner makes a 2/1 on Qxx, KJx, x, AQ10xxx, and later opener can cue bid a known support card in clubs, then this hand knows 12 tricks are possible opposite AKxxx, Axx, xxx, Kx and therefore should cooperate in the slam investigation.

The valuation of both the long suit and the club king is more accurate and beneficial this way than if opener could cue bid x or void in clubs.

And to answer your question, yes, my agreement with my partner is that a cue bid of his suit always shows a support card, A, K, or sometimes Q. Further, if the auction allows it, a double jump in his suit shows two support cards, such as KJ or QJ. 1S-2C-2D-2S-4C. This sequence indicates a slam try with two club honors.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure I understand the merits of the double jump to show two honors in partner's suit. Cuebidding 3C to show one top honor, and then later cuebidding 4C to show the other honor, not only allows for an entire realm of cuebids on route to the second cuebid, but also allows for the rare Splinter into partner's suit to actually show shortness, in case partner has a hand with interest opposite shortness.

That being said, I happen to use a strange jump in the auction you suggested to show two top honors in clubs, Winston. ;-) After 1S-2C-2D-2S, I have devoted the jump to 3NT to show, specifically, two top honors in spades, two top honors (third) in clubs, no Ace or King in my side suit, and, by inference, a stiff in the fourth suit (perhaps KQxxx-x-Qxxx-KQx). This is all part of a complete theory of cuebidding, however.

If your double jump to show two honors has specific parameters like my 3NT, with an alternative to show the stiff, then it would seem to work.