[Flame]

Im trying to design a system over 1NT opening for my intermidiete+ students, I want it to be good yet with no momory overdoing work.
I want to keep normal stayman.
I dont want to use stayman with no 4 card major.
I want to be able to find 5 cards majors in openers hand.
Currently i play 3C as puppet stayman, which can do the work.
I have some options each has proc and cons and i would aprishient your help.
option 1:
2s transfer to C or NT invite
2NT transfer to D
3C puppet staman

This option works fine, the only real problem with it is opponents doubling 2S for lead.
option 2:
2S - clubs any strengh or diamonds invite
2NT- nt invite
3C - diamonds invite

Here we lose the pupet stayman we can solve this with the 2C but it seems to be too complex.
option 3 is somthing i thought about:
same as option 2, but using 3D/3H/3S to take place of the missing puppet stayman
3D = bid ur 5 card major or 3NT with non.
3H = 4S3H
3S = 4H3S.
This way we will find the major fit, and also will hide openers hand better then other systems, the main problms is this taking space and when a 4-4 fit is found the respoder is the declarer. The space consuming doesnt buther me too much since the uses of 3D up arent too important anyway, yet the 4-4 playing from the wrong side does.
What do you think ? Suggest other simple ways if you can.
Thanks in advance

[EricK]

Here's something I just made up:

2♠ as invite in NT or Puppet Stayman
Opener rebids 2NT with minimum, 3N with maximum and no 5 card suit; 3X with a 5 card suit and a maximum.
After 2NT response, responder passes with the invite or bids 3♣ with Puppet Stayman hand (there is probably a good use for other 3 level bids by responder as well).

[Flame]

This doesnt solve your problem with 4-3 major.

[awm]

Here's one possibility:

2♣ = stayman
2♦, 2♥ = transfer
2♠ = transfer to club, any strength
2NT = natural inv
3♣ = transfer to diamond, weak or GF
3♦ = natural inv
3♥ = 31(45)
3♠ = 13(45)
3NT = signoff

1NT-2NT
.... Pass = minimum
.... 3M = maximum, five cards in this major
.... 3NT = maximum no 5cM

1NT-2♠
.... 2NT = don't like clubs (now 3♣ signoff or inv, else GF natural)
.... 3♣ = accept club invite (continuations natural GF)

1NT-2♣-2♦
.... 2♥ = weak both majors
.... 2♠ = inv 5♠ (not forcing)
.... 2NT = inv with a 4cM
.... 3♣ = minor suit puppet
........ 3♦ = 4-card minor only (3♥ = club interest 3♠ = diam interest)
........ 3♥ = 5 clubs
........ 3♠ = 5 diams
.... 3♦ = 5-5 majors invite or better
.... 3♥ = smolen 4♥/5+♠
.... 3♠ = smolen 4♠/5+♥
.... 3NT = signoff

1NT-2♣-2M
.... 2♠ = inv 5♠
.... 2NT = inv with 4-card other major
.... 3♣ = asking
........ 3♦ = 4-card minor (3♥ = club interest 3♠ = diam interest)
........ 3M = 5-card major
........ 3OM = 4-4 majors
........ 3N = 4333 with 4-card original major
.... 3♦ = balanced/semi-balanced slam try in major opener showed
.... 3M = inv
.... 3OM = agrees opener's major + shortness somewhere
.... 4♣ = keycard opener's major

1NT-2♦-2♥
.... 2♠ = invite values with 5♥
........ 2NT = min no fit (now 3-minor NF 5-5 hand)
........ 3♥ = min ♥ fit
........ 3NT = max no fit
........ 4♥ = max ♥ fit
.... 2NT = game force ♥ + ♣ (transfer)
.... 3♣ = game force ♥ + ♦
.... 3♦ = balanced/semi-balanced slam try with hearts
.... 3♥ inv 6+ heart
.... 3♠ = sets hearts + shortness somewhere
.... 3NT = choice of games
.... 4♣ = keycard hearts

1NT-2♥-2♠
.... 2NT = game force ♠ + ♣
.... 3♣ = game force ♠ + ♦
.... 3♦ = balanced/semi-balanced slam try with spades
.... 3♥ = sets spades + shortness somewhere
.... 3♠ = inv 6+ spade
.... 3NT = choice of games
.... 4♣ = keycard spades

[Flame]

Would you say that finding the 5-3 fit isnt important enough to check for it ?

[EricK]

Flame, on Jun 24 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

This doesnt solve your problem with 4-3 major.

OK. Change the response to 2♠ to
2NT minimum
3♣ maximum 4♥ (responder bids next step to confirm fit)
3♦ maximum 4♠ (responder bids next step to confirm fit)
3♥ maximum 5♥
3♠ maximum 5♠
3NT maximum no major

After the 2NT response, 3♣ is Puppet Stayman

[Flame]

EricK, on Jun 24 2006, 03:07 PM, said:

Flame, on Jun 24 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

This doesnt solve your problem with 4-3 major.

OK. Change the response to 2♠ to
2NT minimum
3♣ maximum 4♥ (responder bids next step to confirm fit)
3♦ maximum 4♠ (responder bids next step to confirm fit)
3♥ maximum 5♥
3♠ maximum 5♠
3NT maximum no major

After the 2NT response, 3♣ is Puppet Stayman

This has a problem i tried to avoid, you will give information about opener's hand when respoder just want to invite NT.

[EricK]

Flame, on Jun 24 2006, 08:49 PM, said:

EricK, on Jun 24 2006, 03:07 PM, said:

Flame, on Jun 24 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

This doesnt solve your problem with 4-3 major.

OK. Change the response to 2♠ to
2NT minimum
3♣ maximum 4♥ (responder bids next step to confirm fit)
3♦ maximum 4♠ (responder bids next step to confirm fit)
3♥ maximum 5♥
3♠ maximum 5♠
3NT maximum no major

After the 2NT response, 3♣ is Puppet Stayman

This has a problem i tried to avoid, you will give information about opener's hand when respoder just want to invite NT.

True.

But hands which just want to invite 3NT are very rare. Especially if responder is not interested in whether opener has a 5 card major. It would have to be something like a 2245 hand in a very restricted HCP range.

[Flame]

Reading aprevious post on the forum i think it was a concensus that using kind of stayman when you only want to invite NT is bad tactic. I think maybe for the resson of hiding information there should be many hands which i would not ask for major even tho i have a 3 cards in it.
Thanks alot to both of you for your help.

[Cascade]

Flame, on Jun 25 2006, 05:03 AM, said:

This doesnt solve your problem with 4-3 major.

I think there is also a problem when responder is 5-3 in the majors.

My solution is:

1. Ordinary Stayman

followed by

2. A bid in one of the minors at the three-level to ask for a five-card major

We use Stayman with a 5-3 in the majors. And then use 3♦ to ask for a five-card major or a three-card major.

1NT 2♣
2♦ 3♦ Do you have a three-card major
3♥ Yes in hearts and maybe in spades
3♠ Yes in spades but not in hearts
3NT No

1NT 2♣
2♥ 3♦ Do you have five hearts or three spades?
3♥ I have five hearts I might have three spades
3♠ I have three (or four) spades and not five hearts
3NT 2-4 in the majors

1NT 2♣
2♠ 3♦ Do you have three hearts or five spades?
3♥ Three hearts*
3♠ Five spades*
3NT No

*I suspect you can make either response as the first priority

[Flame]

Thanks this looks very nice, the only problem with it is that you reveal little theexact major possition when playing puppet wouldnt, still i like it.
I see that most world class dont use puppet stayman, do they use something like that to recheck for the major fit ?
How would you bid the minors ? especially 5m 4M ?

[mgoetze]

Another possibility is to use 1NT-1♦ as *either* Heart transfer or NT invitation (1NT-1♦-1♥-1♠ showing the invitation hand), freeing up 2NT as, say, a diamond transfer, without cluttering up Stayman. The downside is that you can't play both superaccepts and Serious 3NT here.

There was a thread on reg.games.bridge arguing that you don't need an invitation to 3NT because opener will get it wrong 50% of the time anyway.

[Free]

I use 1NT-2NT to show 5-3M hands:

2NT = transfer ♦ OR GF 5-3M

Opener responds in function of a transfer ♦, and responder can now bid 3M to show 5-3 hands (bid the 3 card M - Smolen like). This doesn't reveal anything from opener, except maybe some ♦ holding

This keeps your stayman followed by 3m natural. The only problem you may have is that it's probably better to use Stayman even without a 4 card M, but you don't want that... I think Cascade's approach is probably a lot simpler

[Cascade]

Flame, on Jun 26 2006, 02:53 AM, said:

Thanks this looks very nice, the only problem with it is that you reveal little theexact major possition when playing puppet wouldnt, still i like it.
I see that most world class dont use puppet stayman, do they use something like that to recheck for the major fit ?
How would you bid the minors ? especially 5m 4M ?

Revealing the exact distribution is a problem.

While we play these methods we also often just bid 1NT 3NT. Especially at IMPs. At IMPs a major suit fit needs to be two tricks better to be a real gain.

With 4M5m we have some other specialized bids. With a singleton we can start with some 3-level response to show the singleton. Without a singleton we start with Stayman and then bash 3NT or we use 3♣ after Stayman for these and some other hands that are slammish.

[awm]

A couple notes on finding 5-3 major fits. Certainly:

1NT - 2♣ - 2M - 2NT

with a min opener passes. With a max, bid 3M on the way if holding five.

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ (artificial, inv values with 5♥):

2NT = min no 3♥
3♥ = min 3+♥
3♠ = max 5♠ + 2♥ (choice of games)
3NT = max 2♥ not 5♠

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ (inv with 5 spades)

Pass = min
3♥ = max five hearts
3♠ = "good" minimum, you decide
3NT = max no fit no five hearts
4♠ = max spade fit

Also one could use 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3♦ as checkback, could be part of a balanced slam try but not always. Opener bids:

3♥ = 3+♥, now partner can cuebid with slam try, or otherwise 4♥
3♠ = 5♠, only 2♥, now partner can cue, or bid 3NT/4♥
3NT = only 2♥, not 5♠, if partner bids on it is cue for hearts

Similarly can use 1NT - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♦ checkback. This means the checkback is always GF, but not necessarily slammish, just shows a balanced-ish game forcing hand looking for the right spot.

Basically you will always find all major fits on game auctions. It's possible to miss a 5-3 fit where opener has five when you're declining an invite, but at least you get to stop a bit lower (2NT instead of 3M).

[Flame]

awm how do bid 5♥4♠ invite ? Wouldnt you lose some 4-4 spade fit even with game value.

[awm]

This is the one hole in the method. If you're willing to give up bidding stayman weak with both majors, then of course you can use 2♣...2♥ for this meaning, but I think that's inefficient.

Basically the choice is:

(1) Decide to force game and bid smolen.
(2) Bid stayman, then 2NT over 2♦ (might miss 5-3 heart fit, although you can certainly engineer to find it if partner is max).
(3) Transfer to hearts, then 2♠ (might miss 4-4 spade fit, although easy to find it when partner is max).

[Flame]

awm, on Jun 28 2006, 03:18 PM, said:

(3) Transfer to hearts, then 2♠ (might miss 4-4 spade fit, although easy to find it when partner is max).

Not so easy, 1NT-2D-2H-2S-3NT and you missed it. You might find it when there is also H fit the then its less important.