[ArcLight]

What would you open with this hand? IMPS Vul vs NonVul

♠ A K T X X X
♥ K x
♦ K x
♣ A K 3

I opened 1 ♠. We ended up in 3NT making 6 (defense palyed poorly). Pard thought I should have opened 2♣ like several others.

While this is a very nice hand, I felt it was flawed in several ways.

1. I would need to enter dummy twice to take the 2 red suit finesses.

2. If pard had just 1 Spade, I'd have 1 or 2 spade losers, on top of what ever else I lost.

3. I felt game was close, and if pard could scrape up a bid, I'd go for it, but if pard passed, then we'd be in a part score.

[Walddk]

Agree with 1♠.

Roland

[whereagles]

If I'm not mistaken, in sayc 1-suiters with 18-20 hcp are usually opened at the 1-level, intending to make a reverse or jump rebid, even if that means bidding a 3-card suit.

In french standard those hands open a 2♣ 'fort indeterminee', while in acol I think the bid is a 2♦ benjamim opener.

(Incidently, I disagree with all three aproaches.. lol)

[pbleighton]

If your red kings were aces you could open this 2C. As is, 1S is the bid.

Peter

[inquiry]

In SAYC this is clearly only a 1♠ opener. Same is true of 2/1. Some natural bidding systems will allow this to be opened 2♣, but then they must have a way to stop in precisely 2♠.

[david_c]

Hands with long spades are good for opening 2♣, but this one falls just short in my opinion so I'd open 1♠.

[hotShot]

The contract you want to play is ♠ and you need to protect your red K's.
Playing SAYC this is a clear 1♠ opener.
I'd like to know the rest of the bidding, because i can't really understand why you stopped in 3NT, because 4♠ looks like the better contract.
Even with a weak partner bidding both red suits a ♠ void is unlikely and playing ♠ seems at least equivalent to 3NT.

[ArcLight]

>I'd like to know the rest of the bidding, because i can't really understand why you stopped in 3NT, because 4♠ looks like the better contract.

Playing 2/1
1♠ - 1NT (forcing)
3NT

I think the correct book bid would have been 3♠ becaus eof teh 6 spades, headed by AKJ. But in Mike Lawrences version of 2/1 3NT shows 20+. Here is some of my reasoning at the time:

1- playing with a pick up pard, I didn't want to miss game. Pard had passed a forcing bid on the prior hand, so I didn't want to take any chances with a bid like 3♣ or 3♠.

2- I didn't know what pard hand, he may have had 6 HCP and a spade void, so I didnt want to jump to 3♠ passed out.

[helene_t]

3♠ would have been non-forcing so you can't bid that. Some would say that 2NT shows an 18-19 balanced while 3NT shows what you have. Without that agreement the correct rebid is probably 3♣.

[ArcLight]

>3♠ would have been non-forcing so you can't bid that. Some would say that 2NT shows an 18-19 balanced while 3NT shows what you have. Without that agreement the correct rebid is probably 3♣.

Perhaps, but pard had passed that sequence on a prior hand.
I mentioned that he passed a forcing bid, so I didn't want to take a chance.
(Not much fun playing that way! )

[SoTired]

I see nothing wrong with opening this 4-loser hand 2C. The hand has plenty of defense and quick tricks and HCP. But the primary reason I'd open it 2C is that if partner has 3 or 4 spades and 2 clubs and out, partner is likely to pass when 4S is making.

[helene_t]

That can hardly be the reason why they say you should have opened 2♣. If partner is capable of passing forcing bids, you must certainly open 4♠.

[barmar]

ArcLight, on Jun 12 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

>3♠ would have been non-forcing so you can't bid that. Some would say that 2NT shows an 18-19 balanced while 3NT shows what you have. Without that agreement the correct rebid is probably 3♣.

Perhaps, but pard had passed that sequence on a prior hand.
I mentioned that he passed a forcing bid, so I didn't want to take a chance.
(Not much fun playing that way! )

He passed a forcing bid, and then he criticized your bidding on this one?

[SoTired]

I missed that! I said I'd open it 2C rather than 1S because partner with xxxx xxx xxxx xx would pass 1S when 4S is a good contract. Anybody that willy-nilly passes forcing bids is not someone you want to take bidding advice from.

[jdonn]

This argument about, partner could have a yarb with 4 card support and the right queen and we will miss game if I don't open 2♣, is silly. If 1/15 times partner passes 1♠ you have game (they will balance most of those times anyway but lets ignore that) and 14/15 times partner passes 1♠ you don't have game, then you should open 1♠. How about all the hopeless games opening 2♣ will get to when partner is broke and doesn't have exactly the perfect hand for you?

Easy 1♠ opener, and easy 3♣ rebid (playing standard methods).

[Al_U_Card]

You don't have more quick tricks than losers. Opposite a yarboro with trump support you can't make game, so start with 1S and if pard can make a peep then you are off to the races. 2C would be masterminding in SAYC or 2/1 in my eyes.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

depends on how forcing 2C is,
is it semiforcing and if you can stop
in 2S, than 2C is fine, if 2C forces
to game, 1S is better.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[toothbrush]

I open this 1♠.
May be this can be opened 2NT also, right-sided.

[foo]

♠AKTxxx♥Kx♦Kx♣AKx

Major suit oriented 2C openings w/o 22+ HCP should be worth >= 8.5 tricks and have 6+ controls (or have 4- losers).

You've got the controls.
You only have ~7 expected tricks (or you have 1+1.5+1.5+1= 5 expected losers)
You usually will need GOP to have 2 cover cards and S support for you to make 4S.
IOW, 1S-allpass is unlikely to miss a game.

Change one of those red K's into an A, and I'd open 2C w/o hesitation.
Change the Cx into a Sx and I would again open 2C w/o hesitation.

The "book" SA sequence w/ this hand is 1S-any;4S showing 6+S and 18+ HCP.

Many pairs plays 1M-any;3C! as (semi)artificial with some fancy relay or relay-like continuations to clarify Opener's shape and strength.

[jdeegan]

The rule I was taught in days of yore was "four quick tricks and four losers for the major suits". You have 5 quick tricks, but you are a tad short of having just four losers. Your point that you may not have dummy entries to lead twice toward your two kings is a most relevant point. I would bid one spade.

The other issue is that opening a strong two bid is nowhere nearly as useful today as it was 40 years ago when 2♠, 2♥ and 2♦ openers were strong as well. The awkward mechanics of starting off at the two level with an artificial opener followed by a relay make the strong two bid more like a necessary evil necessary to handle big hands.