[Chamaco]

Hi all !

MP, all vulnerable
Playing 2/1 you hold in 1st seat

QJTx-AKxxx -Axx-X

Opps are silent, and pard raises to 2H (constructive, 8+/10- hcp).

You have agreed to play the folllowing system of raises, so pard's 2H bid excludes more or less the following hand types:
- weak 3 card raise = goes via 1NT forcing
- invitational 3 card raise = via 1NT forcing
- invitational+ 4 card raises = via Martel 2NT
- mixed raises with good sidesuit = 3-level FJS
- splinters = 3S and higher bids

Now, let's assume you decide to make a game try (if you don't, I'll point a gun at your head ):
you have available 2 game tries :
- either LONG SUIT GAME TRY, basically asking for some honors fit is the suit bid
- or SHORT SUIT GAME TRY showing your singleton, and asking pard to bid game with little wasted values.

Here, do you prefer to make a short suit game try showing club shortness, or a long suit game try, asking pard to bid game with some honor fit in spades ?
Thanks all !

[hotShot]

If I have the choice I'll show my short clubs, this is far more helpfull to partner than showing honors in ♠ would help me.

[lowerline]

Short suit game try. I want to be in game opposite: ♠xx♥Qxx♦KQxxx♣Qxx.

[mr1303]

Definitely a short-suit game try. If partner has 2 low spades that won't overly bother me, but if partner has something like KJx of clubs that will bother me.

[1eyedjack]

Neither is ideal.
Any values that partner has in Spades will likely be more valuable than values in Diamonds. Partner will assume opposite a short suit try that his values in suits outside of Clubs will not differ significantly depending on location. Even so I go with the short suit trial as the lesser evil, and if available I will normally go for that unless it is exceptional. Take for example
S:AQJx
H:AKxxx
D:xxx
C:x
then I would sympathise with a long suit trial in Diamonds.

Slight thread drift, but how do you show a hand worth a slam try with a strong second suit? Knowledge of the possession and location of the strong second suit (together with slam try values) is likely to be of more value to responder than any other feature, and yet a short suit trial elsewhere would certainly not get that across. If you make a long suit trial in the long suit and subsequently cue, would that show this hand or would it show a slam try with the more classical holding in the long suit trial suit (ie a suit full of holes)? I suppose you could reserve a jump in the side suit to show this hand type.

[Miron]

I'll try short clubs, but I would prefer the method where I can show 4 spades. The 4-4 fit is usually better We play kokish game tries (is also known under different names):
1♥ - pass - 2♥ - pass
2♠ = ask for nearest help suit
2NT = 4♠ (if partner doesn't have 4 spades, he takes it as help-suit)
3♣♦ = shortness

So I would say 2NT in kokish or short clubs in your system.

[1eyedjack]

Miron, on Jun 9 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

I'll try short clubs, but I would prefer the method where I can show 4 spades. The 4-4 fit is usually better We play kokish game tries (is also known under different names):
1♥ - pass - 2♥ - pass
2♠ = ask for nearest help suit
2NT = 4♠ (if partner doesn't have 4 spades, he takes it as help-suit)
3♣♦ = shortness

So I would say 2NT in kokish or short clubs in your system.

I think most partnerships who play short suit trials will find the alternative major, even if they show the short suit trial first.

[Free]

I'm going for a long suit trial, but I don't like either actually. I may have 2 immediate losers in ♠ and a ruff, making it hard to get to 10 tricks. If I make a short suit trial, opps may start with my short ♣ to try and tap me. If trumps are 4-1 I'm toasted after a ♣ start I think...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

since I seem to play a structure,
which allows both types of trial bid (ROMEX ?!),
I will take the cheaper one.

The idea is, that I may after partners answer
have some room to investigate further.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Chamaco]

Miron, on Jun 9 2006, 12:46 PM, said:

I'll try short clubs, but I would prefer the method where I can show 4 spades. The 4-4 fit is usually better We play kokish game tries (is also known under different names):
1♥ - pass - 2♥ - pass
2♠ = ask for nearest help suit
2NT = 4♠ (if partner doesn't have 4 spades, he takes it as help-suit)
3♣♦ = shortness

So I would say 2NT in kokish or short clubs in your system.

Yeah we also use a mechanism for 2-way game tries: 2S is a puppet to 2NT followed by showing a singleton; other bids bypassing 2NT by opener are long suit game tries, where 2NT = spades.

So there is indeed a way to show spades, even in our methods, by simply bidding 2NT.

However, the details of the gadgets every pair use is not the point of this thread.
The main point is only which of the 2 features is more important here.

[P_Marlowe]

Chamaco, on Jun 9 2006, 10:12 AM, said:

Miron, on Jun 9 2006, 12:46 PM, said:

I'll try short clubs, but I would prefer the method where I can show 4 spades. The 4-4 fit is usually better We play kokish game tries (is also known under different names):
1♥ - pass - 2♥ - pass
2♠ = ask for nearest help suit
2NT = 4♠ (if partner doesn't have 4 spades, he takes it as help-suit)
3♣♦ = shortness

So I would say 2NT in kokish or short clubs in your system.

Yeah we also use a mechanism for 2-way game tries: 2S is a puppet to 2NT followed by showing a singleton; other bids bypassing 2NT by opener are long suit game tries, where 2NT = spades.

So there is indeed a way to show spades, even in our methods, by simply bidding 2NT.

However, the details of the gadgets every pair use is not the point of this thread.
The main point is only which of the 2 features is more important here.

My answer with your methods: 2NT.

The reason, partner will bid 3H with
dead min, 4H with max, or he may
bid 3C or 3D showing values in this
suit.
After 3C I give up, after 3D I bid 4H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikestar]

For this very common sequence, I rahter like what Marshal Miles advocates: Most game tries are made by an artificial 1 step rebid by opener (2NT over spades, 2♠ over hearts. Responder signs off in 3M or bids game with a hand where the action is indicated regardless of what the opener has. In all othe cases, reposnder bids his cheapest suit (2NT to show spades when hearts are agreed) in which he has an honor concentration. Now opener has the usually has the info he needs and the enemy is in the dark (I'll post followups later where opener needs more info).

An example sequence: 1♠-2♠-2NT-3♦-4♠. This could be a hand where opener needs help in diamonds and bids game when he gets it, but it also be a short suit try with a stiff club, or it could be hand where opener is always going to bid game but is fishing for slam opposite a perfect fit and gives up when partner has diamond cards opposite his shortage. Have fun with the opening lead, esteemed opponents.

On the hand given, I bid 2♠ and bid game over 2NT(=spade cards) or 3♦ (probably bidding 3♠ to cater to the 4-4 fit) but sign off over 3♣.

[Impact]

Everyone has said sensible things - including the one-step for concentrated values.

On this hand the short suit is important because:-

CK is of little value & CQ of none;

the only Q (except trumps which partner already knows is valuable) which could be of use is in D, and any other secondary D Honours are useful.

If he holds A he knows they are good cards - and most K (excluding CK) while trump Q is a good value.

On close decisions you want him to focus on lesser useful fitting Honours and showing short C in this scenario is the most likely to elicit useful assistance under your scheme,

regards

[pclayton]

Hmm...I'm a little old-fashioned here, but I'd try like heck to find our 4-4 spade fit. I think we can find it easier after I make a LSGT, but perhaps we are in tune enough to find it after a SSGT.