[ron]

Consider an uncontested auction that starts 1D-1H, 2D-2S. Let's assume that 2S is forcing to (at least) 3N and that if responder had bid 3H at his/her second turn that would have been invitational.

a) What sort of hand would opener hold to bid 3S here?
Is AQx x AQT9xx xxx acceptable? Is AQx xx AQT9xx xx acceptable?

b) What sort of hands would opener hold to bid 3C in this auction? It might be relevant to your answer to state what your style is for opener's rebid over 1H when holding 6 diamonds and 3 hearts, since this may affect the set of hands with which opener bids 3H here.

[pclayton]

ron, on Jun 12 2006, 02:27 PM, said:

Consider an uncontested auction that starts 1D-1H, 2D-2S.  Let's assume that 2S is forcing to (at least) 3N and that if responder had bid 3H at his/her second turn that would have been invitational.

a)  What sort of hand would opener hold to bid 3S here? 
Is AQx x AQT9xx xxx acceptable?  Is AQx xx AQT9xx xx acceptable?

What sort of hands would opener hold to bid 3C in this auction?  It might be relevant to your answer to state what your style is for opener's rebid over 1H when holding 6 diamonds and 3 hearts, since this may affect the set of hands with which opener bids 3H here.

After 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♦ - 2♠:

Typical hands for responder:

1. Axx, KQxxx, KQx, xx (prelude to a diamond raise)
2. AQxx, KQxxx, x, Axx (patterning out)
3. Axx, KQJxxx, x, Axx (prelude to a heart rebid)

Typical hands for a 3♣ rebid by Opener:

1. x, xx, AQxxxx, KQxx (weak 6-4; patterning out)
2. xx, xx, AKJxxx, Axx (trying to right-side the NT)

A typical hands for a 3♠ rebid: AQx, x, AQxxxx, xxx (nothing better to say); I don't like a 3=2=6=2, as it crowds the auction and doesn't give responder the chance to cheply bid hand "3" above.

[mike777]

I would have just rebid 3D with both of these hands.
If partner thinks I got 11-12 hcp and 6+d and no club stop and less than 3 hearts that is ok!

Heck I bet Al Roth opens a weak 2D bid with this hand .

[jdonn]

Pretty much agree with everything Phil said, except that I might bid 3♠ on the 3262 hand though. If partner has just one club stopper, we probably belong in the 6-1 heart fit anyway if that's what we got, meaning he will rebid his hearts even if he has to on the four level.

[Kalvan14]

IMO, we should start one step earlier: 2♦ rebid shows 100% 6 diamonds (opener can pattern out 5-4 hands with either 4 clubs or spades).
Therefore, after 2♠:

• 2N= natural, good club stopper
  
• 3C 4th SF, with insufficient club stopper (but at least Jxx or Qx in the suit)
  
• 3D shows a good suit (AKJxxx or AQJxxx are minimum holdings), willing to play 3N with a single club stopper by advancer
  
• 3H is natural, 3 cards (and should take priority, unless clubs stoppers are very good, or diamonds include the 3 top honors)
  
• 3S shows values concentrated in spades and diamonds, nothing in clubs and not good diamonds. 3-2-6-2 or 3-1-6-3.

[kfgauss]

pclayton, on Jun 12 2006, 10:40 PM, said:

Typical hands for a 3♣ rebid by Opener:

1. x, xx, AQxxxx, KQxx (weak 6-4; patterning out)
2. xx, xx, AKJxxx, Axx (trying to right-side the NT)

How is it "patterning out" if you might not hold four clubs?

I like to play that 3♣ is a punt and is bid on lots of hands, a general "late in the auction 4SF" type bid. Note that this also allows partner lots of room to describe the forcing diamond raise and heart rebid.

For you, what about AK xx AJxxxx Jxx or AK xx AJxxxx xxx? Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd add what you'd do with AQx xx AQxxxx xx (all you said was that it wasn't a 3S bid). For me, this is a 3C bid probably (I can understand 3S too, but worry about bypassing hearts with two of them).

[Edit: regarding Josh's point above about this 3-2-6-2, my worry is not that we miss hearts when pard has six, it's that, having bid 3S, we now have trouble distinguishing these two hands when pard has 5 hearts -- we may want to play hearts opposite the 3-2-6-2 but not the 3-1-6-3.]

Another interesting point is: does 3H promise 3, or do you bid it on honor doubleton?

Andy

[P_Marlowe]

1) yes both hands are acceptable,
responder knows that opner does
not hold a 3 card spade suit,
opener will hold a single in clubs /
hearts more often than not

2) 3C would be fourth suit forcing,
asking for a club stopper.

Wih kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

kfgauss, on Jun 12 2006, 07:36 PM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 12 2006, 10:40 PM, said:

Typical hands for a 3♣ rebid by Opener:

1. x, xx, AQxxxx, KQxx (weak 6-4; patterning out)
2. xx, xx, AKJxxx, Axx (trying to right-side the NT)

How is it "patterning out" if you might not hold four clubs?

He just means that is one of the possibilities.

kfgauss, on Jun 12 2006, 07:36 PM, said:

I like to play that 3♣ is a punt and is bid on lots of hands, a general "late in the auction 4SF" type bid. Note that this also allows partner lots of room to describe the forcing diamond raise and heart rebid.

For you, what about AK xx AJxxxx Jxx or AK xx AJxxxx xxx? Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd add what you'd do with AQx xx AQxxxx xx (all you said was that it wasn't a 3S bid). For me, this is a 3C bid probably (I can understand 3S too, but worry about bypassing hearts with two of them).

Well I don't know about him, but I bid 3♠ on all those hands. All bids should be descriptive as far as I'm concerned, including 3♣. It's true playing 3♣ as artificial saves room for partner, but you lose the chance to do something that describes your hand, which I consider too high a price.

kfgauss, on Jun 12 2006, 07:36 PM, said:

[Edit: regarding Josh's point above about this 3-2-6-2, my worry is not that we miss hearts when pard has six, it's that, having bid 3S, we now have trouble distinguishing these two hands when pard has 5 hearts -- we may want to play hearts opposite the 3-2-6-2 but not the 3-1-6-3.]

What is the hand where 4♥ makes in the 5-2 opposite xx of hearts but other games don't make? It's very unlikely, but just possible

AQx xx AQT9xx xx
Kxxx KQJTx Kx xx

Where I would have this auction
1♦ 1♥
2♦ 2♠
3♠ 4♦
4♥ pass

If opener had the same 3163 hand, I suppose I would get to 5♦ going down with 4♥ in the 5-1 being the only making game, it's true.

kfgauss, on Jun 12 2006, 07:36 PM, said:

Another interesting point is: does 3H promise 3, or do you bid it on honor doubleton?

Andy

For me it is almost invariably honor doubleton, though it could be three small. With Hxx I will virtually always raise 1♥ to 2♥. That is also why opener can bid 4♥ on the auction I just showed, because he has tended to deny as much as Hx already, so responder will do the right thing.

[kfgauss]

jdonn, on Jun 14 2006, 03:30 PM, said:

What is the hand where 4♥ makes in the 5-2 opposite xx of hearts but other games don't make? It's very unlikely, but just possible

AQx xx AQT9xx xx
Kxxx KQJTx Kx xx

Where I would have this auction
1♦ 1♥
2♦ 2♠
3♠ 4♦
4♥ pass

If opener had the same 3163 hand, I suppose I would get to 5♦ going down with 4♥ in the 5-1 being the only making game, it's true.

Given that you bid 3♠ on hands like AK xx AJxxxx xxx, we can construct more, e.g.

AK xx AJxxxx xxx
QJxx AKJxx xx Ax

(If you say you have a similar auction to the one you constructed above, how does this responding hand get to the moysian in spades when appropriate? I think 3S should have 3 spades and suggest the moysian. Requiring that doesn't rule out your style, just makes these hands choose a least of evils, probably 3C or 3H.)

Also, the 2S bidder needn't to have 4 spades, so we can also have hands like:

AQx xx AQxxxx xx
Kxx AKJxx Jx xxx

or

AQx xx AQxxxx xx
Kxx AKQ10x 10xx xx

(Thinking about this particular hand more, I'll admit that I'm perhaps wrong about this one and not bidding 3S immediately probably makes you lose the spade moysian when it's good more often than it makes you miss 5-2 hearts when that's good because, at least if 3S promises 3, responder can be sure you have a 4-3 fit when you bid 3S immed, but not later, and you'll never really be sure resp has 4. There will be cases where you can suggest it on the way to 5D, but the auction will be more difficult, at the least.)

Also, at matchpoints, there are many hands where 4H almost always makes at least 420 (and usually 450 if hearts are 3-3) and 5D makes 5 involving heart suits with only 3 honors.

Andy

[jdonn]

I would have had that auction on all of those combinations of hands. 4♥ is not particularly great in all cases, but is better than 3NT.

Yes, even the hand with Ax of clubs, responder should not bid 3NT I believe. He knows partner has no club help, and probably doesn't have Qx of hearts, so the odds of running enough tricks quickly enough seem low. I suppose I would bid 3NT at matchpoints, but then again that isn't bridge

[kfgauss]

I'd want to bid 4S over 3S with QJxx AKJxx xx Ax after 1D-1H;2D-2S;3S-?. You're presumably getting to 4H instead of 4S opposite AKx xx AJxxxx xx. One can't do everything, of course, and 4H, though worse than 4S, isn't so bad. (You presumably do find the moysians with 3-1-6-3 shape by rebidding 4S over 4D.)

Andy

[joshs]

pclayton, on Jun 12 2006, 05:40 PM, said:

ron, on Jun 12 2006, 02:27 PM, said:

Consider an uncontested auction that starts 1D-1H, 2D-2S.  Let's assume that 2S is forcing to (at least) 3N and that if responder had bid 3H at his/her second turn that would have been invitational.

a)  What sort of hand would opener hold to bid 3S here? 
Is AQx x AQT9xx xxx acceptable?  Is AQx xx AQT9xx xx acceptable?

What sort of hands would opener hold to bid 3C in this auction?  It might be relevant to your answer to state what your style is for opener's rebid over 1H when holding 6 diamonds and 3 hearts, since this may affect the set of hands with which opener bids 3H here.

After 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♦ - 2♠:

Typical hands for responder:

1. Axx, KQxxx, KQx, xx (prelude to a diamond raise)
2. AQxx, KQxxx, x, Axx (patterning out)
3. Axx, KQJxxx, x, Axx (prelude to a heart rebid)

Typical hands for a 3♣ rebid by Opener:

1. x, xx, AQxxxx, KQxx (weak 6-4; patterning out)
2. xx, xx, AKJxxx, Axx (trying to right-side the NT)

A typical hands for a 3♠ rebid: AQx, x, AQxxxx, xxx (nothing better to say); I don't like a 3=2=6=2, as it crowds the auction and doesn't give responder the chance to cheply bid hand "3" above.

Personally I think its wrong to bid the 4'th suit both on hands that have the suit well under control and with hands that have doubt. I really think 2N is a much better rebid on xx x AQJxxx KQxx and similar. This gives definition to 3C then 3N as showing something in clubs but not that much...
After 1D-1H-2D-2S-2N- everything is natural and forcing, so if there happens to be a club fit responder will introduce clubs now...

General principle, in game forcing auctions:
the 4'th suit is a semi-natural punt unless partner has allready shown stuff in that suit via a NT bid, in which case its natural. Note the NT bid has to have explicity show stuff in the key suit...
1H-1N(forcing)-2S-3C(natural, decent hand, gfing)-3D(punt, 1N bid didn't show diamond values)
1H-2C(gfing)-2S-2N-3D(natural, 4531 or 4630 or 4540)

[000002]

I advice bid 3♠ to show singleton ♠ with 3cards ♥ upholding,regards.