[kfgauss]

What does:

1H (1S) P (P)
X (P) 3D (P)
3H

show, and how forcing/encouraging is it?

Andy

[mike777]

As I reopen on almost any hand with short spades and 10 hcp, 3h cannot be forcing.

x...AKxxxx..xx...Kxxx

[awm]

Responder should have 5♦ and a hand just short of making a two-over-one free bid. I'd say something like 7-9 high (maybe a bad 10).

Opener should have extras with some sort of diamond tolerance (but not a great fit) and either five really good hearts or six mediocre ones. In any case opener was ``strong enough'' to rebid 3♥ but the suit length/quality made that call less desirable. The correction is a forcing call (both opener and responder showed extras) but the auction can potentially die in 4♦ if there's no spade stop and no heart fit. Potential hands for opener:

x
KJxxxx
AKx
AJx

xxx
AKQxx
Ax
KQx

While I agree with Mike to reopen aggressively, I don't automatically reopen with a double. Holding six hearts and a minimum-range opening, I will reopen with 2♥. Holding six-plus hearts and extras, I may reopen with 3♥, but only if suit quality merits it.

[awm]

As a general rule on balancing in auctions like this, my approach would be:

With a minimum hand you can:

(1) Double if you have support for all unbids. Typical shape is 2533 or 15(43).
(2) Bid your second suit with a real two suiter (5-5 or 5-4 with concentrated values).
(3) Rebid hearts if you have six decent ones.
(4) Pass with minimums including spade length.

With extras:

(1) Bid 1NT with spade length, including some hands with a minor suit singleton (3541, 4531).
(2) Bid your second suit with a two-suiter, or jump in your second suit with a really good 5-5.
(3) Bid 3♥ with a really nice heart suit.
(4) Double with support for all unbids.
(5) Double with various awkward hands where you are semi-balanced without a stopper, or have a one-suiter but the hearts aren't good enough to jump-rebid.

So double and then correct to another suit shows extras and hand type (5).

[joshs]

Adam pretty much explained this (x and then correct ALWAYS shows extras, just like a takeout x and then a new suit) Further after partner has shown values, and then you make a bid that shows extras, that bid is forcing.

The one thing to note is on hand types that x's and then corrects. This is typically a strong, somewhat flexable hand that would be happy to hear partner pass. You may be any of:
1633
1642
1624
26(32)
26(41)
on this auction.

and possibly even a hand like x Axxxxxx AKx AK with a weak 7 card suit and great defense.

[kfgauss]

I agree that 3H shows extras, and the "extras + extras = game" principle seems reasonable, but I'm not certain here because 3D doesn't have to have that much extra: what about hands like xxx x KQxxxx xxx (is this a 3D bid for you?).

I suppose you can simply end up playing 4D then, though.

Andy

[mike777]

kfgauss, on Jun 8 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

I agree that 3H shows extras, and the "extras + extras = game" principle seems reasonable, but I'm not certain here because 3D doesn't have to have that much extra: what about hands like xxx x KQxxxx xxx (is this a 3D bid for you?).

I suppose you can simply end up playing 4D then, though.

Andy

This is a 3d over 1s overcall ala Lawrence, so what the heck does pards 3d delayed bid show?
Pard cannot have a decent 8 hcp with a decent D suit that is a 2d bid.

[AlexOgan]

mike777, on Jun 9 2006, 09:48 AM, said:

kfgauss, on Jun 8 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

I agree that 3H shows extras, and the "extras + extras = game" principle seems reasonable, but I'm not certain here because 3D doesn't have to have that much extra: what about hands like xxx x KQxxxx xxx (is this a 3D bid for you?).

I suppose you can simply end up playing 4D then, though.

Andy

This is a 3d over 1s overcall ala Lawrence, so what the heck does pards 3d delayed bid show?
Pard cannot have a decent 8 hcp with a decent D suit that is a 2d bid.

xxx x KQxxxx xxx may be a 3D bid after 1H-(1S) for Lawrence, but for many (most?) people, 3D on this auction would be fit-showing, with diamonds and hearts... And many (most?) would require more than a decent 8HCP and a decent suit for a 2D free bid...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the first question is, what is 3D,
does the bid exists?

The 1st Pass by responder denies fit,
it also denies the values to make a
neg. X followed by 2D or the values for
a direct 2D bid.

Also reponder was not able to bid 1NT,
6/7-10 HCP with a spade stopper.

Now Responder also does not have a trap
pass, which means ???

Also responder did not bid 2D as an answer
to the reopening dbl, which would show a 5
carder with less than 6/7HCP.

=> I dont need to think about 3H, since 3D is
a impossible bid. q.e.d.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Bidding 3D with a 5 carder, and with val.
below inv. strength, with no gurantee
of a fit with opener, is just asking to get killed.

[P_Marlowe]

kfgauss, on Jun 8 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

what about hands like xxx x KQxxxx xxx (is this a 3D bid for you?).

How about bidding this hand the standard way:
neg. X followed by 2 or 3D, assuming you play
a new suit at the 2 level as forcing?

So to answer your question: this hand is certainly not a 3D bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kfgauss]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 9 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

kfgauss, on Jun 8 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

what about hands like xxx x KQxxxx xxx (is this a 3D bid for you?).

How about bidding this hand the standard way:
neg. X followed by 2 or 3D, assuming you play
a new suit at the 2 level as forcing?

So to answer your question: this hand is certainly not a 3D bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

A negative double is possible on this hand, but I certainly hope it isn't mandatory, especially with those 3 small spades and the stiff heart.

Andy

[helene_t]

I think it's forcing.

The reopening double shows either a hand with classic shape, or extras. Now 3♥ shows extras.

[P_Marlowe]

kfgauss, on Jun 9 2006, 11:24 AM, said:

A negative double is possible on this hand, but I certainly hope it isn't mandatory, especially with those 3 small spades and the stiff heart.

Andy

Hi,

what does holding 3 small spades have to
do with it?

You make the neg. X, which promises 4 spades,
assuming 1S shows 5, but the cheapest diamond
bid over openers answer cancel the message.

So I would say, yes the neg. X is mandatory,
else pass, but than over the reopening X, simply
bid 2D.
Making undiscussed obscure bids, and that is how
I characterize 3D, will lead to misunderstandings.

With kind regards
Marlowe